Training Rimfire

[somethingbenign]

Sighted in some deer rifles with friends and my wife yesterday. Great time and I always get a kick of the Mrs doing hunting stuff with me. The problem we ran into was she developed a flinch in a couple shots on her 30-30. She just had to have a lever action deer rifle and it just has to have irons, I'm not going to argue with her. Well after getting kicked around on her rifle I had her try a 22lr rifle I brought along for giggles if we had time. After about 50rds of 22 she went back to the 30-30 and while it still beat her up she went from barely staying on the paper to a ~2" group at 50yds. I will never underestimate the value of stepping back to a lowly rimfire for a bit to focus on basics. Now just for her to realize it is okay to "cheat" with a scope and lighter recoiling rifle when it comes to hunting. One battle at a time.

 

[sarduy]

You are absolutely correct, stepping down to a 22lr is completely fine in order to regain the basics. It’s very important to always work on the basic and recoil management. Also the blast is way less than a 30-30. Get her to master that 22 with irons then we a scope and soon she’ll rocking that 30-30.

 

[Demi-human]

Just as useful as they are fun!
Every safe should have some!
Good luck with your second endeavor.

 

[Seedy Character]

Absolutely nothing wrong


with using a .30-30 lever gun with iron sights.

or practicing fundamentals with a .22LR.

Do you reload? I have been loading 120gr powder coated bullets in my .30-30. 2300-2400 GPS. Accurate and mild recoil. My 10yo grandson loves it. The 2 deer he shot last year, not so much.

 

[Tentwing]

For this exact reason I started all my children with a cork gun bought at Dollywood. I used it to teach them safety(muzzle direction) , but also it was quiet and did not kick, because a “ trigger pull flinch” is very hard to un-learn. I slowly graduated each of them to Daisy Red-Rider BB guns. Then to Marlin 39 a from a bench , so the could work on target acquisition. Plus a subsonic 22lr from that heavier 24 inch barrel is really quiet and still no kick. Eventually as they got bigger and older we moved on to 22mag then our first center fire was 38 from you guessed it a 20 inch barrel Lever gun. Then 357 from that same lever gun.

Now all this was a slow progression, but my kids never developed a “trigger pull flinch” . All of this was important to me , because at 7 years old my dumbass older brother thought that making me shoot 3 inch magnums from a 12 gauge would “ mak-uh man out of yuh” . What it did besides give bruise up side the right side of my head was give me a flinch that took me years to un-learn.

I am currently using the same process with my grandchildren. Your mileage may very , but the 22lr or is still my favorite cartridge

 

[Varminterror]

I’ve been beating folks over the head with this for over 20 years trying to help it sink in! So many folks are glad to pass along the bad advice of “if you learn to shoot with [something with a lot of recoil] then everything else will be easy, and you’ll be a better shot for it.” But in reality, EVERY OTHER THING WE ARE EVER TAUGHT is built progressively - we crawl before we walk, we ride a bike before a unicycle, we learn addition before calculus... the 22LR practice analogy is absolutely invaluable.

 

[somethingbenign]

She is a very *looks over shoulder to make sure she is out of earshot* "independent" women and sometimes it is just easier to let her learn some lessons the hard way then try and convince her otherwise. She did shoot a bunch of 22 with her dad as a kid but it has been years and she thinks she can handle any rifle now. I'm happiest she is now understanding irons @ 100 yards is not something just anyone can do with no practice. She is also now understanding gun fit is important in other types of shooting besides shotgun. All these lessons are things will take her time and I'm just trying to keep the scars to a minimum while she bullheads her way forward.

Do you reload?

I do reload but mostly shotshell and pistol, just started dabbling with rifle last year. I have the dies for the 30-30 and the components just haven't gotten around to it yet. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll have to try it.

 

[ms6852]

I find 22lr a very useful resource when training. I practice a ton of weak hand shooting with 22lr. This allows me to shoot a couple of hundred rounds without breaking the bank. As stated above, you cover the basics. Since I carry a 686, I practice and train double action only with a S&W 617, than shoot weak hand too. At the end of my session I have shot 2 to 300 rounds of 22lr and only a couple of cylinders of .357, which is the last thing I shoot to retain muscle memory , plus helps protect my hand from pain due to recoil, which is stout.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

Absolutely nothing wrong


with using a .30-30 lever gun with iron sights.

or practicing fundamentals with a .22LR.

Do you reload? I have been loading 120gr powder coated bullets in my .30-30. 2300-2400 GPS. Accurate and mild recoil. My 10yo grandson loves it. The 2 deer he shot last year, not so much.

That is basically 7.62x39 ballistics so I'm not surprised your grandson got 2 deer easy. I just wish 30-30 was more available and the guns were cheaper (Sorry, I'm not gonna drop $1000 on a gun that cost $400 to make if gunshow pricing is anything to go by) or I might have a good ol' lever gun in that caliber.

 

[film495]

I bring a .22LR pistol and rifle to our shoot spot every trip. They always put more rounds down range than anything else we bring. I've also started shooting a 9mm carbine a good bit to practice. You can't beat repetitious cheap practice IMHO.

 

[Dr T]

Sometimes I fear that 22 therapy is overlooked by new shooters. Much of the time I think that it is in response to bad advice from other new shooters when they ask the question "What should I get for my first rifle?"

When I was in my teens, I did a lot of hunting with a Winchester 670 30-06 with a LOP that was about an inch too long and a very heavy trigger pull. I went from being a good shot to one that was less than mediocre due to the flinch that I developed. By the time this happened, I was not getting out the the ranch to shoot the 22 as much as I needed.

When I got to college, the local Oshman's in Austin had a sale on Remington 788's with scope that I could just barely afford. When I got there, the only one they had was in 6 mm Rem.The lack of recoil was a revelation, and I unlearned my flinch in about 40 rounds. The accuracy was also a revelation. With good handloads, it will shoot 0.5" 5-shot groups at 100 yards.

 

[Swampman]

Light, "traditional" style 30-30's give a lot of felt recoil for the amount of power they put out the front end. It's kind of like shooting a lightweight, micro sized 9mm, the gun may be +P rated, but that doesn't mean your hand is.

In either case, a lighter recoiling gun like a .22 is usually going to be better for working on marksmanship fundamentals like breathing, sight picture, trigger control and follow through.

...at 7 years old my dumbass older brother thought that making me shoot 3 inch magnums from a 12 gauge would “ mak-uh man out of yuh” . What it did besides give bruise up side the right side of my head was give me a flinch that took me years to un-learn...

Did he use the standard "big brother approved" method of firing off several low brass 7/8th oz trap loads ("see, it doesn't kick at all!"), before handing you the shotgun with a 3 inch magnum, 1 3/4 oz goose load chambered in it?

 

[Tentwing]

Light, "traditional" style 30-30's give a lot of felt recoil for the amount of power they put out the front end. It's kind of like shooting a lightweight, micro sized 9mm, the gun may be +P rated, but that doesn't mean your hand is.

In either case, a lighter recoiling gun like a .22 is usually going to be better for working on marksmanship fundamentals like breathing, sight picture, trigger control and follow through.

Did he use the standard "big brother approved" method of firing off several low brass 7/8th oz trap loads ("see, it doesn't kick at all!"), before handing you the shotgun with a 3 inch magnum, 1 3/4 oz goose load chambered in it?

Well not exactly …… He is 6’ 6” weighing in a 265lb, and home on furlough from Vietnam , soooo I doubt that he felt much of that recoil , and even if he did he would have NEVER admitted it.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

Light, "traditional" style 30-30's give a lot of felt recoil for the amount of power they put out the front end. It's kind of like shooting a lightweight, micro sized 9mm, the gun may be +P rated, but that doesn't mean your hand is.

In either case, a lighter recoiling gun like a .22 is usually going to be better for working on marksmanship fundamentals like breathing, sight picture, trigger control and follow through.

Did he use the standard "big brother approved" method of firing off several low brass 7/8th oz trap loads ("see, it doesn't kick at all!"), before handing you the shotgun with a 3 inch magnum, 1 3/4 oz goose load chambered in it?

What is funny is I fired a 3.5" 2oz #5 turkey load out of my Stoeger P3500 and it had just a bit more recoil than a full power 2.75" target load... So idk what the deal is...

 

[Seedy Character]

What is funny is I fired a 3.5" 2oz #5 turkey load out of my Stoeger P3500 and it had just a bit more recoil than a full power 2.75" target load... So idk what the deal is...

The "deal" is, you have a shotgun that fits you.

 

[d2wing]

When I was an instructor I started beginners with air pistols to learn sight control without recoil. Then air rifles then 22's. I taught shotgun with a BB gun without sights made by Daisy. I still do most of my practice with a .22 LR.

 

[Buzznrose]

I begin (and often end) EVERY range session with .22 LR.

It is the best thing for me to get my head right and help me prevent wasting a few mags getting my act together.

Kinda like taking some warm up pitches before a ball game…

 

[12Bravo20]

The only disadvantage I see with 22lr is the lack of recoil. Otherwise it is the perfect caliber for teaching new shooters and also fro training. I have a 22lr version of just about every rifle and hand gun that I use. I have taught both my kids and many others by starting them out with a Daisy Red Rider to build the foundations of safety then moved them to an old Savage Model 15/120 single shot 22 before anything else. Same with hand guns, I started them out with a 22lr in both revolver and pistol.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Snap caps and live rounds at the range later -- just like what we used to do with revolvers.

 

[Swampman]

The only disadvantage I see with 22lr is the lack of recoil...

I've always looked at that as one of its main advantages...

 

[Tentwing]

I've always looked at thát as one of its main advantages...

…

Yeah I have to agree……… I am unsure what the “disadvantage” of low recoil is ???

 

[Meeks36]

For this exact reason I started all my children with a cork gun bought at Dollywood. I used it to teach them safety(muzzle direction) , but also it was quiet and did not kick, because a “ trigger pull flinch” is very hard to un-learn. I slowly graduated each of them to Daisy Red-Rider BB guns. Then to Marlin 39 a from a bench , so the could work on target acquisition. Plus a subsonic 22lr from that heavier 24 inch barrel is really quiet and still no kick. Eventually as they got bigger and older we moved on to 22mag then our first center fire was 38 from you guessed it a 20 inch barrel Lever gun. Then 357 from that same lever gun.

Now all this was a slow progression, but my kids never developed a “trigger pull flinch” . All of this was important to me , because at 7 years old my dumbass older brother thought that making me shoot 3 inch magnums from a 12 gauge would “ mak-uh man out of yuh” . What it did besides give bruise up side the right side of my head was give me a flinch that took me years to un-learn.

I am currently using the same process with my grandchildren. Your mileage may very , but the 22lr or is still my favorite cartridge

First gun I ever shot was a single shot 12 ga at 11. Wasn’t expecting that. Went out a hour later my paw paw handed it back to me and it took me 2 min to pull the trigger again. Don’t let yougins shoot high recoiling anything until they are ready.

 

[FL-NC]

The best drill I have found to kill flinch is the ball/dummy drill. It is mostly used with pistols, but there is no reason it can't be done with a rifle. It would take forever to explain it here but I am sure youtube has videos on the process. It requires 2 people to execute the drill- just use good safety procedures, because it requires the coach to stand to the side and slightly behind the shooter, load (or not load) the firearm in a way the shooter can't see, and safely hand it to the shooter on the firing line.

 

[12Bravo20]

I've always looked at that as one of its main advantages...

Let me restate that then. Yes low recoil is an advantage when introducing new people to shooting. The recoil, or lack of, is not as much of an issue when shooting rifles as it is with shooting handguns. And if you are only shooting rimfire guns and not centerfire or shoot the rimfire first, then recoil is not an issue.

Where it is a disadvantage is if someone is expecting the recoil and they flinch. Or if they are not expecting any recoil then don't hold a centerfire correctly, they can get a big surprise.

Yes this is more of a problem with handguns than it is with rifles.

 

[Riomouse911]

Light, "traditional" style 30-30's give a lot of felt recoil for the amount of power they put out the front end. It's kind of like shooting a lightweight, micro sized 9mm, the gun may be +P rated, but that doesn't mean your hand is.

In either case, a lighter recoiling gun like a .22 is usually going to be better for working on marksmanship fundamentals like breathing, sight picture, trigger control and follow through.

Did he use the standard "big brother approved" method of firing off several low brass 7/8th oz trap loads ("see, it doesn't kick at all!"), before handing you the shotgun with a 3 inch magnum, 1 3/4 oz goose load chambered in it?

Beat me to it!

Indeed, the .30-30 in a 336/1894 style rifle does have a surprisingly sharp kick that can certainly cause a shooter to start flinching after a few shots are fired. I guess it’s in the design of the stock and weight of the gun more than the power of the round. (Now my .45/70 1895’s can be downright punishing depending on the load it’s fed. )

I begin (and often end) EVERY range session with .22 LR.

It is the best thing for me to get my head right and help me prevent wasting a few mags getting my act together.

Kinda like taking some warm up pitches before a ball game…

Exactly, beginning and ending every range session with a .22 rifle or handgun (or both) is a great way to start off right and end by reinforcing good habits.

I see LOTS of new shooters at the ranges now, almost all being taught by spouses or friends how to shoot for the first time. So far only two that I’ve paid attention to we’re using rimfires, in both cases the newbie was actually hitting in a “scoring” area of the targets they were using. All the rest that were using 9mm-.40-.45 pistols (it never seems to be a revolver ) had shots scattered all over the place.

I get the fact that many people scrimp to buy their first gun, the majority of new guns are not cheap to buy nor to feed. Since it seems most of the new buyers today buy their first gun for defense and may never buy another, so they rarely think about buying a rimfire that can serve as a learning/training tool in tandem with their centerfire choice for defense. I think if they did that a) they’ll shoot more often and really learn to enjoy it, and b) be better shots for it.

Stay safe.