Training with an E-tool?

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WestKentucky

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For those folks among the group who were fortunate enough to serve our country by joining the armed forces, I have a question...

Did you, in your training, ever do any training on combat use of the E-tool (folding "entrenchment tool" shovel for those who don't know)?

I know of guys who claim to have confirmed kills with them, and was amazed at the way they are using them.

I know it seems very strange, but it has come up recently and I saw one earlier when I cruised the aisles of the surplus store. I almost bought one, and I will go back, just gotta decide between wood handle or trifold with pick. Trifold is more compact, wood is more old school cool. Prices are the same and both are stamped US on the hilt so I believe both to actually be military issue.
 
I spent 20 years as an Infantryman and never once received any training on use of an E-tool as a weapon. I do have a copy of a WWII training film that covers all kinds of improvised weapons. But I am not aware of any formal HTH program that covered the use of an E-tool between 1974 and 1995. That doesn't mean that some unit somewhere didn't conduct training on it though.

I have heard stories of their use as a weapon but I chalked them up to just that.....stories. I have no doubt that in WWII, Korea and Vietnam there were instances where e-tools and anything else you could imagine were used as a weapon. But that kind of close combat isn't that prevalent these days.

I can't imagine that one would be an appropriate weapon for a private citizen on the streets of America.
 
While we became very familiar with the use of the entrenching tool during boot camp digging fox holes, we never received training to use it as a weapon.

Likely the reason may be the fact that the entrenching tool is normally carried in the collapsed form and would take some time to deploy (take it out of carrying pouch, stretch out to full length and twist the locking lug which takes some time to accomplish).

I guess if things got desperate, we would use whatever weapon that was available to use against the enemy as we did receive training to use bayonet on our M16s :eek: We all kinda chuckled when we went through M16 bayonet training, including the sergeants. :D They all told us to focus being really proficient with our primary weapon.
 
I agree that it's not a great choice, but seems like a good tool to have around. I want to keep one in the truck to use as a shovel, but the sight of one brought up the conversations.

I looked it up a bit and it seems that other nations may have historically done some minimal training on their versions. Seems silly that anyone would use an e-tool over a sidearm, or a bayoneted primary weapon.
 
I went on AD in 1967 and retired from the Reserves in 2009. Never had or heard of anyone in the US Army having a formal training program for use of an e tool as a weapon. It was brought up at times as an improvised weapon but that's it.

I believe Spetsnaz did some type of training using the their e tool as a weapon. I don't think it went much further than "hey look at this, you can swing it this way".

Given a choice between the two I think the wooden handled ones make a better weapon. Don't believe because they are both stamped US they are issued. They make a lot of repro stuff in China and stamp it US.

I agree with Jeff, it's not something a civilian should have high on their list of useful weapons.
 
I agree that it's not a great choice, but seems like a good tool to have around. I want to keep one in the truck to use as a shovel, but the sight of one brought up the conversations.

If you are going to keep a shovel in your truck, get a real shovel. We used e-tools because they were more convenient to carry. But if there was serious digging to be done, you scrounged a D-handle shovel from the nearest tactical vehicle and hoped no one beat you to it.

Just like it's not my first choice for a defensive weapon, it wouldn't be my first choice to dig my truck out of the mud.
 
I have a Glock entrenching tool and on a motorcycle trip to Alaska we had it (with an improved edge) and an Estwing camp ax as camp tools and improvised weapons. I consider them weapons of last resort and can't really see either as effective in a modern military combat setting where small arms are present.
 
IIRC, there is a passage in "All Quiet on the Western Front" where the veterans were teaching new replacement, Paul Baumer, to sharpen the edge of his entrenching tool.

That was WWI in the trenches though.
 
I was never trained in the use of one but was issued the folding variety.

When I was traveling in Europe, I sometimes had a Russian trench shovel with me. It was sharpened on all sides, and would have been a devastating weapon. Thankfully I never needed it.

For fun, look up "spetsnaz shovel training". The Russians love these little spades and train their forces, at least their special forces, in hand to hand combat with them and even how to throw them into an enemy's spine to kill them at distance. Frighteningly effective for sure!

I have two original Russian shovels and a Cold Steel repro. They are all excellent and supremely useful not only as a tool, but as a weapon.
 
No training, and like cooldill, issued the fold-up one. Not sure I would have trusted it as a weapon. I used the pickmattock and shovel set from my Duece & a half for building foxholes anyway, so I'd have probably had one of those in my hands if attacked while digging one. If not, I'd have probably thrown the little folder at them, and drawn the Gerber MkII or the M7.
 
"...That was WW I in the trenches though..." "All Quiet on the Western Front" is also fiction. And as anti-war as a novel could get.
Read some book(Probably a Bantam War Book vs pure fiction.) long ago about USMC on Guadalcanal, I think. Written by a journalist who said he saw at least one troopie carrying a sharpened 12" screwdriver. He didn't get any screwdriver training either. As I recall, the writer was talking about the ingenuity of the troopies.
"...shovel in your truck, get a real shovel..." Absolutely. Every part of your body will thank you. A short 'D' handled round shovel can be had for around $5 but most run around $20. Worth every cent if you need a shovel.
 
There are plenty of stories about soldiers using E-tools to make kills. There is even a confirmed story about a Ranger making a kill with an MRE spoon. I would say the vast majority of them are lies. I have only met one person who had confirmed kills (plural) with an E-tool and the medal citations to prove them. He also happened to be the man who taught me how to shoot but I digress.

http://gruntstuff.com/ranger-gets-confirmed-kill-with-mre-spoon/#

8 years infantry, no formal training on E-tool use to kill someone. There was some "hip pocket" training done during combatives during bored/down time that involved knives, E-tools, helmets etc as improvised weapons.
 
Former 11 series myself, never had any training on that thing.

Someone who told you the story might be remembering the scene from "Platoon" that had someone using one as a weapon.

As far as usefulness, we have one for use in the small garden and working under the deck where a full size shovel is impractical.

Now if you really want a tool, gotta have this one from China, LOL.





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Former 11 series myself, never had any training on that thing.

Someone who told you the story might be remembering the scene from "Platoon" that had someone using one as a weapon.

As far as usefulness, we have one for use in the small garden and working under the deck where a full size shovel is impractical.

Now if you really want a tool, gotta have this one from China, LOL.


Is that a Ennio Morricone piece playing on that video?




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Now if you really want a tool, gotta have this one from China, LOL
I like the bottle opener feature for beer but even the extremely versatile Chinese E-tool was not used as a weapon, rather a "shield" :oops:

This video details the American E-tool's versatility as a "defensive" weapon when you run out of bullets but suggest using the blade part of the shovel to sharpen a poking stick/spear to use as an offensive weapon instead. And don't forget to use as a back scratcher!:rofl:

 
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No training with it. There was a guy in basic who was enthralled with the thing, always sticking it in trees etc. We called him "E-tool" of course!

As a matter of fact, the lack of any useful H2H training in the Army (including 2/75) was what drove me to spend so much of my own time and $ on learning it.

If you are going to get one, the "Spetsnaz" style one (Cold Steel makes a reasonable priced copy), would be best for both fighting and digging.
 
Here are mine:

20161213_183820_1.jpg


Two original Russian ones, both Soviet era made in 1984 and 1986, and a Cold Steel Special Forces shovel. The Cold Steel is the one I carried in my backpack in Germany and it is the equal of the original Russian ones, extremely durable and comes per-sharpened. I have used these in the woods for years as well and they are just great. Once sharpened they are useful for light brush clearing, gathering firewood, digging (of course) and tons of other things. Lighter and easier to carry than the US e-tools even if they don't fold up. The one I was issued was not impressive to me and weighed a lot more than one of these and I doubt it would have been as strong. These Russian shovels are the best in the world, I strongly recommend you guys pick up either the Cold Steel version or an original Russian one off ebay. They are cheap and plentiful, perfect for putting in the car or with your camping gear. Fairly innocuous if you are questioned by the police for whatever reason as well.

Here is a great passage from a book on how the Russians utilize these shovels:

Spades and Men

Every infantryman in the Soviet Army carries with him a small spade. When he is given the order to halt he immediately lies flat and starts to dig a hole in the ground beside him. In three minutes he will have dug a little trench 15 centimetres deep, in which he can lie stretched out flat, so that bullets can whistle harmlessly over his head. The earth he has dug out forms a breastwork in front and at the side to act as an additional cover. If a tank drives over such a trench the soldier has a 50% chance that it will do him no harm. At any moment the soldier may be ordered to advance again and, shouting at the top of his voice, will rush ahead. If he is not ordered to advance, he digs in deeper and deeper. At first his trench can be used for firing in the lying position. Later it becomes a trench from which to fire in the kneeling position, and later still, when it is 110 centimetres deep, it can be used for firing in the standing position. The earth that has been dug out protects the soldier from bullets and fragments. He makes an embrasure in this breastwork into which he positions the barrel of his gun. In the absence of any further commands he continues to work on his trench. He camouflages it. He starts to dig a trench to connect with his comrades to the left of him. He always digs from right to left, and in a few hours the unit has a trench linking all the riflemen's trenches together. The unit's trenches are linked with the trenches of other units. Dug-outs are built and communication trenches are added at the rear. The trenches are made deeper, covered over, camouflaged and reinforced. Then, suddenly, the order to advance comes again. The soldier emerges, shouting and swearing as loudly as he can.

The infantryman uses the same spade for digging graves for his fallen comrades. If he doesn't have an axe to hand he uses the spade to chop his bread when it is frozen hard as granite. He uses it as a paddle as he floats across wide rivers on a telegraph pole under enemy fire. And when he gets the order to halt, he again builds his impregnable fortress around himself. He knows how to dig the earth efficiently. He builds his fortress exactly as it should be. The spade is not just an instrument for digging: it can also be used for measuring. It is 50 centimetres long. Two spade lengths are a metre. The blade is 15 centimetres wide and 18 centimetres long. With these measurements in mind the soldier can measure anything he wishes.

The infantry spade does not have a folding handle, and this is a very important feature. It has to be a single monolithic object. All three of its edges are as sharp as a knife. It is painted with a green matt paint so as not to reflect the strong sunlight.

The spade is not only a tool and a measure. It is also a guarantee of the steadfastness of the infantry in the most difficult situations. If the infantry have a few hours to dig themselves in, it could take years to get them out of their holes and trenches, whatever modern weapons are used against them.

* * *
In this book we are not talking about the infantry but about soldiers belonging to other units, known as spetsnaz. These soldiers never dig trenches; in fact they never take up defensive positions. They either launch a sudden attack on an enemy or, if they meet with resistance or superior enemy forces, they disappear as quickly as they appeared and attack the enemy again where and when the enemy least expects them to appear.

Surprisingly, the spetsnaz soldiers also carry the little infantry spades. Why do they need them? It is practically impossible to describe in words how they use their spades. You really have to see what they do with them. In the hands of a spetsnaz soldier the spade is a terrible noiseless weapon and every member of spetsnaz gets much more training in the use of his spade then does the infantryman. The first thing he has to teach himself is precision: tosplit little slivers of wood with the edge of the spade or to cut off the neck of a bottle so that the bottle remains whole. He has to learn to love his spade and have faith in its accuracy. To do that he places his hand on the stump of a tree with the fingers spread out and takes a big swing at the stump with his right hand using the edge of the spade. Once he has learnt to use the spade well and truly as an axe he is taught more complicated things. The little spade can be used in hand-to-hand fighting against blows from a bayonet, a knife, a fist or another spade. A soldier armed with nothing but the spade is shut in a room without windows along with a mad dog, which makes for an interesting contest. Finally a soldier is taught to throw the spade as accurately as he would use a sword or a battle-axe. It is a wonderful weapon for throwing, a single, well balanced object, whose 32-centimetre handle acts as a lever for throwing. As it spins in flight it gives the spade accuracy and thrust. It becomes a terrifying weapon. If it lands in a tree it is not so easy to pull out again. Far more serious is it if it hits someone's skull, although spetsnaz members usually do not aim at the enemy's face but at his back. He will rarely see the blade coming, before it lands in the back of his neck or between his shoulder blades, smashing the bones.

The spetsnaz soldier loves his spade. He has more faith in its reliability and accuracy than he has in his Kalashnikov automatic. An interesting psychological detail has been observed in the kind of hand-to-hand confrontations which are the stock in trade of spetsnaz. If a soldier fires at an enemy armed with an automatic, the enemy also shoots at him. But if he doesn't fire at the enemy but throws a spade at him instead, the enemy simply drops his gun and jumps to one side.

This is a book about people who throw spades and about soldiers who work with spades more surely and more accurately than they do with spoons at a table. They do, of course, have other weapons besides their spades.

Originally from http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/01.html.
 
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Improvised weapons.... what you employ out of desperation when nothing better is available... Yes, it makes for exciting moments in any action scene - but if things have gone that far south your own fear and desperation will be things you remember mostly (and I was never in combat as a soldier - but did have a few moments as a cop when everything went to hell, and I'd have used my teeth if all else failed...). No, you don't mention it in any report unless you absolutely have to....

Yes, an improvised weapon is better than teeth and fingernails (one particular group - outlaw bikers, can be counted on to bring ordinary shop tools to a confrontation -things like hammers, large wrenches, tire irons, etc.). Having used an entrenching tool as a boy (boy scouts), then a soldier I'm certain you could hurt or kill an opponent with one... but if things have gotten that bad the "good guy" might not be the one who prevails... As my Dad would say "the trouble with knives is that you have to get entirely too close". You could say the same thing about an E-tool...
 
No personal experience to back this up, but I'd think sharpening a tool that 99.9999% of the time will be used for digging is a really bad idea. One slip and it could easily cut you. Plus the act of sharpening the edge inevitably weakens it (though to what degree I couldn't say). I'd think that in the rare event that you actually did have to use one as a weapon, blunt-force trauma would be more a friend to you than a cutting tool anyway.

As for the Russian stories - I'll put the thrown combat shovel in the same class as the spring-loaded knife that shoots at distance... just silly. If they did indeed use and train with such weapons, I'd think a better use of their time would have been in weapon (real weapon) retention drills.
 
If you'd been around many old timers who have had occasion to really use a shovel for more than occasional yard work you'd have noticed them touching up the edge with the file in their back pocket.
An edge on a shovel cuts through sod and roots much better than one without.
 
No personal experience to back this up, but I'd think sharpening a tool that 99.9999% of the time will be used for digging is a really bad idea.

I keep all my shovels sharp. They may not be able to shave the hair on my arm, but they are not far from it.

Look around at folks that use shovels for a living, most have been sharpened, worn down, re-sharpened, etc. many times. I regularly see shovels that are 1/3-1/2 their original blade length due to this process...............and of course the work. It helps a lot.


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