Traveling to Illinois with firearms (AR15)

[cauldron]

Unloaded, cased, in the trunk will be fine. I have been told that loaded mags are not allowed by officers, and once had to unload one before I could leave from a traffic stop (no ticket)

There is a difference between the letter of the law, and what mood the officer is in, and what they know of the law. Good luck, and enjoy your stay.

 

[Trent]

If you carry a firearm in the console with a loaded mag (not in the gun, but next to it), keep a copy of this printed out.

http://www.state.il.us/court/OPINIONS/SupremeCourt/2009/October/106367.pdf

This trumps any local city / county ordinances, period.

Most police officers are NOT aware (despite the ruling being over 3 years old) that carrying a firearm in this manner is not only legal, but backed by a supreme court ruling.

Present the paper POLITELY and tell the officer (who is about to arrest you) that you would like him to reconsider; ask him to call the State's Attorney for clarification. If he persists in arresting you, remind him that a false arrest carries with it certain civil liabilities for him, and his department. Heck, get a business card from a lawyer, and put it in the envelope with the Supreme Court ruling, so the officer knows you mean business.

Keep in mind you are being recorded and have to perform all of this peacefully, and politely. Don't resist if they continue to arrest you. Smile, in knowing that come Monday when the charges are dropped by the State's Attorney, you will have your day in court.

There's lawyers that eat this stuff for breakfast; a quick Google search found many such individuals actively marketing their services in this area. (here's one; http://www.chicagodefenseattorney.net/Practice-Areas/False-Arrest.shtml)

If the State wishes to infringe on your rights, MAKE THEM PAY.

 

[cauldron]

Mr. Trent,
I had the page number, and article/section memorized, along with a copy of the law in the map pocket of the car. The deputy had the book with him.
He refused to look up the law, or look at my paperwork. He stated that I should 'take it up with the state's attorney'.
I spent the night in county, and eventually got my pistol back.:banghead:

So although this is still good advice, and I will continue to try this if it ever comes up again... I have no faith in it working.

Also, it is not possible to sue for false arrest, if the officer 'believed' he was in the right, and not possible at all after a grand jury indictment...




But I believe I know you, and we may have discussed this over coffee before

 

[Trent]

Might have, at some point.

I think part of it is that officers aren't informed of what the law is. Hell, even the Sheriff wasn't aware of the supreme court ruling when I talked to him, and he's a big NRA buff. (It was all over their news back in 2009, dunno how he could have missed it.. but whatever).

It's sad, but I've had several friends arrested at one time or another for UUW. One was carrying a gun in the cab of a pickup truck, in a case, unloaded, and STILL got arrested for it. Cop said it was "immediately accessible", if I recall correctly, despite it being carried legally.

As far as false arrest, you can sue if they detain you without probable cause or arrest you for something when you're not in violation of a statute. But it costs $$$, and chances are, you won't win.

I fought a traffic ticket for 6 months once, and lost. Cops "lost" the video evidence they submitted, kept getting rescheduled over, and over, and over again. Would show up, spend 8 hours sitting there, then at the end of the day kept getting told "we couldn't get a jury together today, you're going to have to come back." It would have been cut & dry to a jury; I was cited for "failure to yield to an authorized emergency vehicle". The video would have clearly showed me COMPLETELY off the roadway.

(I know they had video, because they delivered the ticket to my office *3 days* after the event transpired).

After 6 months of going to court, and 40 hours of lost work, I showed up 8 minutes late (was held up at the x-ray). Came upstairs to the traffic court and the assistant States Attorney was waiting for me with a big old smile on his face. In those 8 minutes that I was held up by security getting fondled, they had my trial and found me guilty in absence.

Yup, that's Illinois.

 

[Jeff White]

If he persists in arresting you, remind him that a false arrest carries with it certain civil liabilities for him, and his department. Heck, get a business card from a lawyer, and put it in the envelope with the Supreme Court ruling, so the officer knows you mean business.

This is the some of the worst advice I've seen posted in a long time. Do you have any idea how often people being arrested threaten to sue? It has absolutely no effect on the decision to arrest or not arrest.

If the officer persists in arresting you, cooperate. The place to argue the legality of the arrest is in court. Let your lawyer take up the matter with the states attorney.

Everyone has a card from a lawyer. It means nothing to the officer. I once had a 13 year old hand me a lawyer's card when I was arresting him for curfew and illegal consumption of alcohol. Turned out the card was from his mom's divorce lawyer.

Don't argue points of law on the side of the road. It's not going to do you any good and may end up making an unpleasant experience even more unpleasant.

Shut up, cooperate and get it right in court. Being argumentative on the side of the road is a losing proposition. You could end up with the UUW charge dropped, but convicted of resisting or obstructing if the discussion gets out of hand.

 

[Trent]

So your advise if you are being arrested for something that is not a violation of the law is to go to jail, spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer, and not raise any objections whatsoever?

Might work for you, not me. If there's a chance to educate the officer prior to being processed, I'm going to make every effort to do so. The alternative? Sit in jail over night, or over the weekend, or perhaps much longer. Fight a bogus charge in court. Fight AGAIN to get the damn thing expunged after the fact so it doesn't screw up FOID/background checks.

Arguing points of law on the side of the road DOES work and it HAS worked for me in the past. Your mileage may vary. A lot of it depends on your attitude, obviously. But I've sat on the side of the road for 3 hours arguing the point of law with a host of cops parked behind me; even convinced them to call the States Attorney for clarification. He cleared things up, and I went on my merry way with a speeding citation. (Traffic stop was on I74 under the Knoxville overpass, Knox County. The whole event lasted 3 hours - the charge was going to be UUW for having an unloaded handgun in my briefcase in the back seat).

Lost 3 hours of my life and the stress about made me puke, but it sure as hell beat spending Friday-Monday in the county lockup, spending money on a retainer with a lawyer, etc.

 

[Jeff White]

So your advise if you are being arrested for something that is not a violation of the law is to go to jail, spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer, and not raise any objections whatsoever?

Exactly!!

If there's a chance to educate the officer prior to being processed, I'm going to make every effort to do so.

You are going to find that some officers aren't open to being "educated" on the side of the road. When that happens depending on attitudes involved you are most likely buying more trouble.

Arguing points of law on the side of the road DOES work and it HAS worked for me in the past.

I'm glad you have had good luck with this. Just remember that you can easily end up with other charges that will stick if your legal debate gets out of hand.

But I've sat on the side of the road for 3 hours arguing the point of law with a host of cops parked behind me; even convinced them to call the States Attorney for clarification. He cleared things up, and I went on my merry way with a speeding citation. (Traffic stop was on I74 under the Knoxville overpass, Knox County. The whole event lasted 3 hours - the charge was going to be UUW for having an unloaded handgun in my briefcase in the back seat).

I'm not even going to ask how they turned a speeding stop into a search of your vehicle and it's contents. 3 hours on the side of the road? For a UUW arrest?

 

[Trent]

Jeff;

If a cop tries to arrest me for something which is obviously not a violation of the law, due to their lack of understanding on the issue, that's an abuse of power. I will ask that they get official clarification.

As far as a conversation getting out of hand, if it does get out of hand, then that's also an abuse of power, because I wouldn't raise my voice or become hostile. I'll state facts politely, and calmly, and ask that the officer get clarification.

As far as the traffic stop goes, I had a single 7.62x51 round in my ashtray, exposed. It was a dud that I threw in there at the range, and forgot about - the cop saw it from the passenger window when he shined the light in. He asked me to step out of the vehicle. Asked to see my FOID card. I handed that to him. Asked if I had any firearms in the car. I said yes.

He went back to his car, called for backup. (I assume at this point he didn't want to turn his back to me while he searched my car.)

I locked my car and put the keys in my pocket, expecting what was going to happen next was a search.

Wait 10 minutes. Backup arrives - two more Sheriff deputies.

He approaches the car again, tells me to place my hands on the back of the car while they search my vehicle. I politely say "you are not going to search my vehicle."

We went back and forth for a few minutes - he claimed to have probable cause to search my vehicle because he saw a round of ammunition in my ashtray. I said he does not, because there has been no justification for a search. He saw a round of ammunition - but he also saw my FOID card and knows that I'm legally allowed to possess ammunition, and transport it however I see fit. He asked if I had a firearm, and if it was unloaded. I indicated yes on both counts.

Still no reason for a search - I'm not giving consent.

I told him if they want to search my car, that's fine, but it's going to take a search warrant. So the call went through to the undersherriff, then to the States Attorney (presumably) and ended at a judge. Judge wrote a bench warrant.

Once presented with a search warrant I handed them the key and they searched my car.

They brought me my locked briefcase which was on the back seat. Asked me to open it for them.

I refused, indicating that the contents of the briefcase was not on the search warrant.

They tried to raise the judge again, wasn't answering.

I waited. And waited. And waited. More cops showed up. They had cops on the overpass. They had cops lined up on the interstate. Enough cops showed up that A DAMN NEWS CREW showed up from Galesburg (reporter picked up the chatter on the scanner) - and the cameraman was turned away.

In the end, I was handed my (still locked) briefcase, issued a speeding citation, and sent on my merry way.

But what a night it was!

 

[Trent]

(The charge they were going after was Aggravated Unlawful Use of a Weapon - during the 3 hour wait, the officer told me that the briefcase was within my reach from the driver's seat, and therefore constituted an "immediately accessible" firearm)

Once I knew there was a bogus felony charge on the line, I stood my ground.

And I'll do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[Jeff White]

As far as the traffic stop goes, I had a single 7.62x51 round in my ashtray, exposed. It was a dud that I threw in there at the range, and forgot about - the cop saw it from the passenger window when he shined the light in. He asked me to step out of the vehicle. Asked to see my FOID card. I handed that to him. Asked if I had any firearms in the car. I said yes.

So you had a round of ammunition in plain sight that was legal for you to possess because you had a valid FOID card?

I told him if they want to search my car, that's fine, but it's going to take a search warrant. So the call went through to the undersherriff, then to the States Attorney (presumably) and ended at a judge. Judge wrote a bench warrant.

You want me to believe that a judge accepted possession of a legal item for you to possess as probable cause that evidence of a crime was to be found in your car and signed a warrant?

I'm not going to say that it didn't happen that way, strange things sometimes happen, but I' have written a few affidavits laying out probable cause for a search warrant to be issued in my time and it's incomprehensible for me to believe a judge would issue a warrant based on that. "The guy has a valid FOID and a round of loose ammunition in his car and that's probable cause to believe that we will find evidence of aggravated UUW in his car"

That wouldn't pass muster with any judge I know. Did you ever see the entire warrant including the affidavit?

 

[Trent]

I was 21, speeding (80 something in a 65), on I-74 at 2 AM in the middle of the night in a brand new 1998 Z28, and refused a search of the vehicle for firearms.

The fact that at this particular time frame, a few miles away in Galesburg, there was a trial of Western Illinois Militia leader Dan Shoemaker ongoing. It had the whole county on high alert.

The fact that I was a known member of said Militia (having attended said trial in the audience with other members) was listed as probable cause on the search warrant.

They, quite frankly, just didn't believe me when I said the firearm was unloaded.

The camera crews showed up when the department issued a state wide alert. That's when the other 12+ officers and news crew showed up.

For the next 12 months, in fact, they had me (and all of the other known members) listed as "consider armed and dangerous" - every traffic stop after this one involved being brought out by loudspeaker and handcuffed on the side of the road.

There were many of those traffic stops in the coming months. I had over the next year many search warrants executed on my vehicle and person (I refused each and every search, and learned to deal with the handcuffs and cold ground).

Aside from my affiliations with a certain conservative extremist group, I'd never done anything wrong. Never had a conviction. Never committed a crime.

But because of my (admittedly quite vocal) beliefs in the second amendment, I felt the bootheels of Illinois law enforcement for quite a while.

And no, to this day, I will not ever - EVER - submit to a search of my vehicle, person, or home on any grounds. I'll do so politely, and calmly, only offering calm verbal resistance.

I will also add, that it's quite humiliating to be driving along with a 3 year old child and have such a search executed on you. Quite frightening for the child too.

Sometime you pay for your beliefs - in ways you don't anticipate.

 

[Warp]

Knew there was more to the story.

 

[Trent]

There always is.

You'd be surprised what a charismatic guy can talk a hot-headed 21 year old in to. I'm pretty lucky things all played out the way they did.

Forward 15 years, and I'm just your average middle age gun nut. Don't really get too active anymore, only thing I really care about is keeping what I have, and maybe getting concealed carry (tough nut to crack in Illinois).

The days of Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the evil Assault Weapons Ban are (thankfully) long gone.

 

[Trent]

Oh and for the record. If you're a 21 year old with a dozen+ cops all stressed out to your six, don't jump off the back of the car, walk to the drivers door, open it, reach in and retrieve a bottle of water.

I got thirsty after 2 hours and it almost cost me my life. When I popped back out with the water bottle in my hand every cop on the scene had drawn their firearms on me.

I shook the bottle over my head and said "I'm thirsty", and they put away their guns. Also (over loudspeaker) told me "DO NOT DO THAT AGAIN."

I got a bad case of the shakes from that, afterwards.

 

[Jeff White]

Trent,
I know of the militia you were a member of. In fact the special prosecutor in the case is now the lead public defender here and I see him daily. That was quite a time in that area.

Thanks for the rest of the story.

 

[Trent]

Jeff, give him my best. And ask him sometime if he remembers the follow-up speech I gave on the steps of Tazewell county courthouse a month or so later. They brought a tactical team up from Springfield for my little appearance. Was about the 5th time in as many months that I had guns trained on me - they cleared out the upstairs of two local businesses to position sharpshooters to cover the courthouse.

I'm glad the second amendment movement is more mainstream now, than it was a decade and a half ago. Over the intervening years I was involved with several other organizations until finally going docile; was there when concealedcarry.org was getting started up in Chicago-land (wrote the software for their membership roster, in fact). Was there when the road signs started popping up on the interstate for gunssavelife.com.

Over the course of the years I discovered Buddhism and my outlook on the world changed considerably - nowadays, the only way I'm going to harm someone else is, if it's self-defense or defense of my family.

Not proud of my past, but I'm also not ashamed of it. Given the situation, the mindset, the social factors present during the timeframe, I wouldn't do it any different. It was a life altering learning experience and really cemented my beliefs.

Illinois is a much different state - gun-rights wise - than it was back then. And that's a good thing.

Still, more work needs to be done, or we'll eventually end up like Cali.

Anyway, said all I'm gonna say here. To return this to the OT...

Be thankful that travelling with guns in Illinois today, is far more forgiving than it used to be for me.

 

[JTHunter]

Interesting story Trent. Thanks for laying it out for us to read.

Oddly enough, in about the same time frame (early 90's), a local tried to get tough with me (I was ~40 at the time) and said in the station (where I had come under my own power) that he was going charge me with UUW after stating in my neighborhood that it would be a "peace disturbance" charge.

I quoted him "chapter & verse" (committed to memory) as to why he couldn't. His reply was that "I don't care about the law! I'm gonna book you anyway!" Filed a complaint with the captain the next day - charges dropped 2 days later, but still lost almost half of the $100 bond. Less than 18 months later, same officer had a "nervous breakdown" and his own partner thought he was going to have to shoot him as he was waving his 9mm around while in the front door of his house. Ruined his career, but several years later, saw him in a fast food joint where he was working. He had the courage to come over and apologize, explaining he was a "burn-out" from those crazy 12 hour shifts. It's more than any of the other goons in his former department ever did. One is still on the force after committing perjury in the county courthouse.

You keep right on making them go the extra mile for all those stops. If they keep sticking their necks out enough, THEY will be the ones to get "gun-shy".