trench shotgun

[mr16ga]

Best thing about a 1897 is how it can chew your thumb if you don't hold it right. Save your money and buy an original Winchester 1897 or a Remington M11 trench gun.

 

[Girodin]

The see a lot of use in cowboy action shooting. You may try to search the web for the opinions of those users. You will hear a lot of yellow scare rhetoric from folks that have never even handled one. Personally I'd discount it.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

M12 and M97 riots

I think the original M12 and M97 Riot and trench guns came with 20" bbls,I only mention this because its easy to forget, their tube mags actually hold 1 more round. If your going to prune one, might as well look stock, even without the CYL on the barrel.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Are you going to start a thread to see if M12 or M97 riots "fall apart" if you shoot them? How about Remington 870s? It seems you have already formed an opinion based on the nonsense the anti-chinese prejudiced trolls are spewing rather than be objective. If the Norincos were unsafe or "fell apart" when you shot them they wouldn't be as popular as they are. They certainly wouldn't be used in shooting competitions by serious competitors.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Sorry Jon, didnt know you were Chinese. But as most of us shop at wallyworld, and have lots of experience with china based product, I think he has a legitimate question.

It has been brought to my attention, that my this comment is both childish and racist. My original comment about M12s and M97s really could have done without your rant as well.

Now when someone says they block you is that like saying I dont agree with you, and I think anything else you say will be equally stupid and dont care to hear further from you again, thats cool..
WHERES THAT BUTTON!

 

[451 Detonics]

It seems you have already formed an opinion based on the nonsense the anti-chinese prejudiced trolls are spewing rather than be objective. If the Norincos were unsafe or "fell apart" when you shot them they wouldn't be as popular as they are. They certainly wouldn't be used in shooting competitions by serious competitors.

I have to agree, the number of Chinese guns being used in competition is substantial. I will add tho many have them fluffed by gunsmiths familiar with the design to smooth them up. However I think personally I would find a decent used 1897, they can be found for around $400 for a good one with blueing wear and order a replica heat shield from East Taylor LLC http://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/winreparts.html for $175, cut the barrel to 20 inches and put one together yourself.

 

[fallout mike]

Jon, I have no idea how popular they are. Like I said , I know nothing about this gun, hence, the purpose of this thread. The only experience I have had with Chinese made gun related items are the countless number of Chinese scopes some of my apparently retarded friends continue to buy, throw away when it stops functioning properly, and then buy another one. I just wanted input from people here that may have the same gun.

 

[fallout mike]

Jon, also, like I said, thanks to your experience that you shared, I'm leaning towards getting the norinco ay this time. However, I take my time before spending money and my mind could change.

 

[Jim Watson]

Early Chicom knockoffs of Winchester '97 were pretty sad but they have improved quality since and there is a cottage industry polishing up the works for fast shooting in CAS.
There are also gunsmiths keeping real Winchesters up and running, too; so if you want a hammer pump you can have it.

 

[JNewell]

The same could very easily be said about the S&W revolver or the 1911, but to be real, modern manufacturing techniques have improved more than a little bit and its possible to create parts with much greater tolerances than in the past and with better heat treating and alloys. I suspect a modern Norinco is every bit as durable as an old 1897 Winchester.
CAS is also hardly "re-enacting". Its some pretty serious competition which involves a LOT of handling and many, many rounds through these weapons. They wouldn't be popular with these guys if they didn't work. You may be letting a little prejudice blind you to the facts my friend.

Well, my friend, I don't have any prejudice, not even a little, against Chinese products. In fact, if you were to read posts of mine elsewhere, you'd find that I am a vehement defender of free trade and open minds. You need a thicker skin, perhaps.

The fact is that the design of the M12 and M97 inescapably involve a lot of handwork. If the M97 were adaptable to the same types of production changes that the M1911 is, you would see onshore production of the M97. Instead what we see is a substantial demand for aftermarket services to make these run well in CAS.

In any case, I will stand by my original point. If the desire is for a shotgun with classic, best-in-class looks, get a M97. If the desire is for a gun that will give reliable service and run forever, look for a used 870 or 500.

 

[jon_in_wv]

My skin is plenty thick and I wasn't offended in the least so lets not try to divert the topic or minimize my statements by trying to infer otherwise. It doesn't make your statements any more true nor does it discount any of mine. If you took the time to quote my statement and disagree with it than do so on the facts. The fact is you inferred the M1897 Norinco is only suitable to "re-enactments" and isn't durable or capable enough for anything else. If you feel that is true and I am incorrect than provide something to support your statement rather than feigning insult like thats the same thing.

Additionally, I went through FIVE pages of your posts, I'm not going to search all 2000+, and I found NO evidence of what you claimed above. You did however post twice about the Norinco claiming you had some expertise in the manufacture and design of the M97 and stating the Norincos were substandard then a third time you posted about the Winchester 97 and you acted like you had no idea how the mechanism was designed. To call a spade a spade you did have a lot of posts about the Remington 870 and the Winchester 1300 and you sound like an experienced and knowledgeable shotgunner. I would NOT presume to question any statement you made about either of them or shotgunning techniques for that matter. I do also assume you don't have a Norinco 97 or have a lot of experience with one and your statements are based more on you bias for the quality of the American guns over the Norinco. The modern shotguns do have a much better fit and finish (questionable, the bluing on my Norinco is really pretty nice) and they are much slicker and more reliable. That doesn't make the Norinco dangerous, useless, fragile, or only good for re-enactments or just "looking cool" because they can manufacturer it and sell it at the same price you are buying Remmies and Winchesters. I have several Russian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, and Spanish pistols that are much cheaper than the M&P 9C that is my daily carry. I don't think any of them are as good of a weapon as the M&P but that doesn't mean any of them are substandard, unreliable, or couldn't be pressed into very effective service for self defense. A really good example would be my Hungarian FEG PJK-9HP. The fit and finish are as good as any Browning I've seen, it has been 100% reliable, and its one of the most accurate handguns I own. Somehow the Hungarians managed to make the complicated and intricate Hi-Power at a price point that is about a 1/3 of a BHP. A few years back Colts were considered unreliable without a trip to the gunsmith and now the Filipinos are cranking reliable 1911s for a much lower price point than the Colts.

 

[ifit]

nothing wrong with owning chinese firearms, well maybe to some people but i absolutely love them, and been very reliable. just picked up an awesome feg hp couple days ago for a meesly $200 bucks oh by the way the chinese copy of a tokarev below is a double stack, takes 15 rounds of 9mm, as a plus it uses the bhp mags also

 

[jon_in_wv]

Careful, the Hi-power comes from a period when guns were essentially hand-fitted in the factory. I hate to be the voice of caution, but if you think you can get anything approaching that degree of workmanship, which is required for the gun to run at a level that I'd trust for anything more than reeancting, at that price point from Hungary. (Note:Sarcasm)

Mike, next weekend I'll go to the range with my Norinco and I'll shoot a few rounds and do a review for you. I think you'll see they work pretty well. I'll post it on Youtube and I'll send a link to you.

 

[fallout mike]

Thanks Jon. I look forward to it.

 

[Drail]

I worked for a dealer who sold Norinco 1911s and we were actually amazed at the quality of the gun at the price. We never had any problems with their products and actually used quite a few as the base gun for some really good competition pistols. The steel that they used was very good quality.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I my self have owned and shot Norinco 1911A1s and Type 56 clones. I think they are fine, and I dig Chrome lined bores. The question was" how bout that chinee mod 97" (paraphrased). We ordered 3 in, got 2 back, and the 3rd never got off the pad. (double feeds/lifter probs) The early ones were a waste of Good Steel. They may be better now. I have not experienced anything to convince me they are. They say if you can't say something good....and I didn't intend to, until you went all hormonal. Maybe you can bring up something about the chinese and their human rights record , thats got nothing to do with the original question either.

I hope the moral high grounders don't interpret disapproval, of their human rights record as racism, if it is there's a lot of us.

 

[andrewstorm]

model 97

After i saw this thread ,i was sickened that so many americans were not worried about buying chinese,the next day i went to a estate sale and lo and behold there sat a 90% condition 97 riot gun,20 in cylinder bore,i took it home for only 300.oo bucks,seek and you shall find ,knock and it shall be opened unto you,buy chinese and your economy shall fall.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Really? Shall we take an inventory of your property and see where all your clothing, cars, electronics, household goods, etc....were made? You conveniently choose firearms as your moral high ground. I wish people did buy American. Our country would still be a strong manufacturing hub if we did. The fact is MOST products we ALL buy are foreign made. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and sit here on my Taiwan made chair, wearing my Korean made shoes, and my Indian made clothes and whine about someone else buying a product from another country and nor should YOU. Instead of getting angry at someone for buying a foreign made shotgun from an American dealer why arent' you mad at General Motors for making its cars in Mexico? Or people who buy Glocks? Or Sigs? You "sicknes" at people's behavior is a little misguided.

Besides, the OP is asking about the weapon. NOT the politics, where it was made, what you think of the economy...................I notice NONE of you guys whining about buying a Chinese weapon seem to have any first hand experience with it or any credible information about it.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

j n wv , I salute your tenacity! even in the face of cool logic and common sense, you never waver. You're shrill responses make me think emotion based reasoning might be more effective. Go read about Chosin resevoir and try to understand that some guys don't shoot chinese guns, out of respect for those who have gone before them.

Barebones ,over simplified economics:

People shoot Chinese guns because they are cheap not superior. They are cheap because, their supply of LABOR is so high they will work for a buck fifty a day. Can't make it any simpler.

Your the one that took the field trip into racism, politics, and economics. You reminding us about the OPs orig question has me rolling in the floor.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Closed, for obvious reasons....