Trigger Stop on a Single Action.

[Fast Frank]

Ok, this might be a silly question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.

I have seen some guns before with great triggers on them.

On lots of those, there is an adjustable stop that prevents the trigger from over traveling after the sear releases.

But I have NEVER seen that on a single action revolver.

What gives? Am I just not looking in the right place or is there some reason why this isn't done?

 

[Fast Frank]

And just to explain a little...

Yes, I own some single action pistols. They all have some over travel in their triggers.

Single action pistols have a slow lock time, and it seems to me like maybe a trigger stop might help hold the thing steady while waiting for that long hammer fall.

If that actually happened, it might be a little easier to put that bullet right where I want it.

But nobody offers any parts to do this, and I haven't seen any guns modified this way. At least not any blackhawks...

And I wonder why. It seems like a "No-Brainer".

 

[HB]

I haven't seen any but wouldn't be surprised if silhouette shooters had them installed. All you need is a hole drilled and tapped for a little set screw.

HB

 

[BobWright]

Most Single Action revolvers have a rather strong trigger return spring that itself acts as a trigger stop. And most of my new Rugers have such a minimal overtravel an added trigger stop is unnecessary.

Bob Wright

 

[BobWright]

I haven't seen any but wouldn't be surprised if silhouette shooters had them installed. All you need is a hole drilled and tapped for a little set screw.

HB

And where does that "little set screw" go? Right in back of the trigger guard, and just in front of your middle finger!

Bob Wright

 

[Varminterror]

Easy enough to install one in any Ruger Single Action - either drill & tap trigger guard, or drill and tap the trigger. I had a couple of mine done in the past, then have done them to my own since. The trigger is cheaper if you botch the job, and a bit easier to drill, although it leaves you with the sensation of the screw hole in the trigger, so I prefer to D&T the grip frame/trigger guard.

To drill & tap your trigger guard, remove the grip frame, support it in a drill fixture, and D&T through the trigger port. This job is even better done when using a Bisley model, or a at least when using Bisley trigger in one of the standard frames. The Bisley trigger "shoulder" is longer than the standard triggers, so the trigger port is larger/longer (the trigger port must be opened longer in the Dragoon, Hunter, XR3-RED, XR3, and Birdshead frames). This longer trigger port gives you a better angle of attack to D&T the trigger guard for the set screw.

The set screw is filed such it doesn't extend behind the trigger guard at all.

The following should only be attempted by someone trained & skilled in gunsmithing practices with appropriate equipment for such, and additionally may result in an excessively light and short trigger, which may be unsafe in the hands of some users for off-hand field use. Proceed at your own risk. If you're going through that trouble, however, you need to correct the sear angle to create a neutral sear, rather than the positive sear of the Ruger factory parts, and should hone down the sear engagement depth to 20thou, rather than the 30-35thou (or 40thou) common to their factory parts. This will reduce your trigger pull weight notably, so a guy should either convert to an extra power hammer spring, or at least put the factory mainspring back in place (assuming most guys going after a trigger overtravel stop would have already done a spring job on their revolver). After adding the overtravel stop and converting to a neutral sear angle, it won't quite "break like a glass rod," but it'll be close - as close as a guy can really want in a revolver, at least.

ETA: Note - Kuhnhausen & Bowen both published instructions for how to install "internal" trigger overtravel stops in Ruger's. I know Al Harton (at least used to) use the same internal overtravel stop. These methods place an angled set screw through the cylinder frame, which limits the upward travel of the rear of the trigger. This is a little different than the "traditional" trigger guard mounted set screw, but it offers a more discreet and more attractive installation - HOWEVER, it does modify the serialized cylinder frame, whereas the trigger guard mounted and trigger mounted stop screws only modify market available, relatively inexpensive NON-SERIALIZED parts.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Why no trigger stops in 'modern' single action revolvers? How about completely unnecessary? I shoot a lot of CAS, and yes my Colt's triggers have over travel. But when you are shooting a single action revolver fast, it just does not matter. It is only for precision shooting, where one is slowly squeezing the trigger, that it matters. I can't imagine very many competitors are shooting single action revolvers in Bullseye today. Incidentally, I see one of the well known pistol smiths for Colts puts a hammer stop in Colts, so the hammer will not travel any further than absolutely necessary after full cock is reached. But that is an internal modification. For what it's worth, in CAS, any modifications to the revolvers have to be internal. No modification visible from the outside when the hammer is down are allowed.




*In their never ending search to downgrade their revolvers, S&W no longer installs a trigger stop, not even in their Model 17 Masterpiece in their classic line.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

you need to correct the sear angle to create a neutral sear, rather than the positive sear of the Ruger factory parts,

Howdy

Personally, I think it is a bad idea to create a neutral sear. There should always be a slight positive angle, in my not so humble opinion. All single action revolvers, not just Rugers, have been made that way for many years, with good reason. With a neutral angle, you are relying on the trigger spring alone to keep the hammer cocked. Much better to have a positive angle where the mechanism itself wants to keep the hammer cocked.

Just my opinion.

 

[Fast Frank]

That's interesting.
I hadn't thought about the idea that most single action shooters are trying to shoot fast.
The moment that the idea of a trigger stop popped into my mind, I was shooting 100 yard groups with my .44 mag Hunter.
That hammer seems to take forever to fall while I'm trying to keep that little dot on target.





I don't know that I would be willing to experiment with this piece by drilling holes in it...

It sure would be nice if somebody would make a drop-in, but I'm guessing any drop-in stuff would be made for the cowboy crowd and not what I'm looking for.

That's a shame, too. The drop in sear and trigger I put in my little Ruger .22 auto made for a sweet shooting gun.

Thanks, guys!

 

[Varminterror]

We'll agree to disagree on the subjective decision to use a neutral angle sear. I've been using neutral angle sears in Ruger's for over 20yrs, and when used in the appropriate application, there's no denying the benefits for the precision target shooter. Positive angle is fine for field use. For precision target use, there are substantial advantages to a neutral sear. Lots of revolversmiths out there "correct" the excessive Ruger sear engagement and sear angle - even some of the big name folks we see kicked around - and gunsmiths have been cutting neutral sears on rifles for generations. The greatest advantage is the fact the shooter can increase the spring rate (noted in my post above) without increasing trigger pull weight, which reduces the abhorrently long lock time of single action revolvers, helping to take the shooter out of the equation. You'll also note the bold red disclaimer in my post above denoting the issue for use of such a trigger for general field use, especially by the inexperienced. Of course, it's a single action revolver, so there really shouldn't be an instance where the hammer is cocked and the sights not on or near target, so I've yet to find an instance where I've ran into a negative consequence from not having a "barb" on my hammer, hanging onto the trigger.

In the context of a thread where a guy is talking about adding a trigger overtravel stop to a revolver, i.e. a precision target application, then an increased power mainspring and a neutral sear are right at home.

 

[Varminterror]

It's not a new idea - guys were making them for Rugers about 70yrs ago...

 

[Fast Frank]

That's for a "Three Screw". It's a replacement plunger for the trigger spring. By adjusting the length it will "Bottom Out" and stop trigger movement.

I wish I could find one of those... it will work in my Old Army. This could be done with a small steel rod carefully cut to size and installed inside the spring.

But not in a "New Model".

 

[MrBorland]

In their never ending search to downgrade their revolvers, S&W no longer installs a trigger stop, not even in their Model 17 Masterpiece in their classic line.

I realize it's de rigueur to claim that any changes in design since the mid-century was solely to cheapen their product, but AFAIK, the reason S&W stopped putting trigger stops in their revolvers is because the stop would lock up the action if they were ever-so-slightly over-adjusted and the hammer cocked. At the time, so-equipped revolvers were used by LEOs, so it was deemed a necessary deletion.

 

[JeffG]

That's for a "Three Screw". It's a replacement plunger for the trigger spring. By adjusting the length it will "Bottom Out" and stop trigger movement.

I wish I could find one of those... it will work in my Old Army. This could be done with a small steel rod carefully cut to size and installed inside the spring.

But not in a "New Model".

May I suggest a little experiment before modifying your gun? A pencil eraser cut to different thicknesses held on the inside of the trigger guard with contact cement. Once you see if you are going to benefit from drilling, tapping etc., you can make the decision if it's worth it. The best one on a single action I've seen, was an allen screw in the trigger guard. Once the adjustment was determined, it was filed flush with nothing protruding from the trigger guard on the grip side.

 

[J-Bar]

Could limiting the rearward motion of the trigger endanger the halfcock notch on the hammer? Ruger Blackhawks and Single Sixes do not have factory halfcock notches but the Ruger Old Army does, like a Colt SAA. I certainly would not want to risk the hammer falling onto the halfback notch instead of falling all the way down onto the primer when I'm making a shot.

 

[Varminterror]

No, not if the shooter uses the appropriate follow through technique - it's the shooter who tries to sneak the break and doesn't follow through by holding rearward which lets the trigger sneak back ever so slightly after the break to catch the half cock notch. The sear break is a farther rearward position than the half cock "break," so if you're holding firm against the trigger stop, it won't catch the halfcock.

 

[jimeast]

To add to MrBorland's comment: S&W does currently use trigger stops on PC revolvers. I have not compared a PC and regular or Pro S&W side by side on the range, so I can't elaborate on whether the difference is noticeable, but to date, except for grip gripes, the PC revolvers I recently acquired have worked flawlessly and I would rate quality very high.

I realize it's de rigueur to claim that any changes in design since the mid-century was solely to cheapen their product, but AFAIK, the reason S&W stopped putting trigger stops in their revolvers is because the stop would lock up the action if they were ever-so-slightly over-adjusted and the hammer cocked. At the time, so-equipped revolvers were used by LEOs, so it was deemed a necessary deletion.

 

[Old Shooter]

The suggestion by JeffG about the pencil eraser trick is worth trying. I've used it on a couple of semi's and it helped. Easy to do, no modifications to any parts of the pistol and can be removed easily if you don't care for it or want to go with a more permanent modification. A magic marker will do for the "bluing". I left mine on a Kel-Tec P11 since it works just fine for me without drilling/tapping/etc.

 

[Wireman]

Howdy

Personally, I think it is a bad idea to create a neutral sear. There should always be a slight positive angle, in my not so humble opinion. All single action revolvers, not just Rugers, have been made that way for many years, with good reason. With a neutral angle, you are relying on the trigger spring alone to keep the hammer cocked. Much better to have a positive angle where the mechanism itself wants to keep the hammer cocked.

Just my opinion.

I agree that a slightly positive trigger is the best option in almost all cases. The OP asked about overtravel. Introducing the subject of target triggers, reducing engagement and changing engagement angles is irresponsible to say the least. With regard to Rugers, hammer and trigger parts are not available to the public if you make a mistake. Then there is the subject of wear. Reducing the engagement depth increases stress (lb./sq. inch) on the metal, which increases the wear. Parts always wear in a negative direction, so a reduced area neutral trigger will eventually become a negative trigger. Sure it seems clever and intuitive that a lighter pull and less trigger movement will improve your accuracy. However it is not true. Of course everything is relative.

A slight correction to the above on neutral triggers. They are safe if truly neutral - the hammer does not cock back or creep forward during a trigger pull. However as I mentioned, it is unknown just how long the engagement will remain neutral. It is a negative engagement that is truly unsafe and is effectively held together by friction alone. The key is the definition of safe. Safe means that the hammer will not drop unless the trigger is pulled. In the case of a negative trigger engagement, the hammer WILL drop if the gun is subjected to a sufficient jolt.

Another consideration for those who like to stone and polish is the subject of staging. A firmly neutral trigger often exhibits the ability to be "staged" or partially pulled and remain partially pulled. Some shooters claim that they have been coached to stage their triggers, but the practice is dangerous, incorrect and unnecessary. There is no magic solution. Accuracy is a state of mind, not usually a lighter trigger. That's the way I see it.

Wireman

 

[Varminterror]

Introducing the subject of target triggers, reducing engagement and changing engagement angles is irresponsible to say the least.

The guy asked about a target-type trigger modification, I offered advice on additional steps commonly taken by revolver smiths to produce target-ready revolvers. Crawl up on a high horse about sear security if you will - I remain to challenge that top name revolversmiths have been cutting Neutral sears into Rugers for as long as Ruger has been making revolvers, and doing the same in other brands before that, and again - why might you find yourself pointing your single action revolver at something with the hammer cocked if you're not ready to fire a shot? Where is the safety concern? You know, the REAL safety concern, not the fabrication of "any reduction in sear engagement will cause instant death"...

Increased wear is a red herring which sounds good online but has no actual application in the field. The end of a 35 thou sear will wear just as quickly as the end of a 20thou sear depth - as the sear breaks, both are exposed to exactly the same force through each trigger stroke. The pressure exerted under full sear engagement will be higher - sure, but that full engagement is the LOWEST pressure exerted to either condition, and the maximal pressure exerted will ALWAYS be at the instant before the break when the sear has moved to the least amount of engagement - exerting the pressure to the tiniest dimension of the sear edge possible, aka - where the wear will happen. And again - this pressure is EXACTLY the same regardless of sear depth, and frankly, is HIGHER when the sear is positive rather than neutral, since the positive sear has to force the hammer rearward against the mainspring, increasing the spring force against the sear surface... Your description is pseudo science - the physics and geometry of the system does NOT support your assertion.

If lighter triggers didn't help shooters improve accuracy, then the ENTIRE competitive precision shooting world is wrong, and you're the one guy who has it figured out. Lighter or improved triggers don't make firearms more accurate, but they sure make it a lot easier for the shooter to avoid screwing up their shots.

 

[If1HitU]

That's interesting.
I hadn't thought about the idea that most single action shooters are trying to shoot fast.
The moment that the idea of a trigger stop popped into my mind, I was shooting 100 yard groups with my .44 mag Hunter.
That hammer seems to take forever to fall while I'm trying to keep that little dot on target.

View attachment 766203

View attachment 766204

I don't know that I would be willing to experiment with this piece by drilling holes in it...

It sure would be nice if somebody would make a drop-in, but I'm guessing any drop-in stuff would be made for the cowboy crowd and not what I'm looking for.

That's a shame, too. The drop in sear and trigger I put in my little Ruger .22 auto made for a sweet shooting gun.

Thanks, guys!

That is a beauty for sure.

 

[paul105]

Here's a Freedom Arms Model 97 (the smaller frame) with an overtravel stop. This one's a .22



Paul

 

[Coal Dragger]

My Freedom Arms M83 has an over travel stop, had it installed when they did the action job and fitted the .45 ACP cylinder. I like the trigger a lot on that revolver, over travel stop seems to have made the trigger more forgiving in regards to follow through issues or other trigger pull sins.