"Triggers" -- Webley vs. Broomhandle

[toivo]

Just watching "Triggers" on the Military Channel, and they did a side-by-side plate-breaking shoot-off between a Webley revolver and a Broomhandle Mauser. The Mauser pulled ahead as the Webley stopped to reload, but then it had a double feed. So they stopped the clock while he cleared the jam!

What kind of a cheesy shoot-off is that? As far as I'm concerned, the Mauser lost. The Webley shooter was reloaded and ready to go. He could have cleared the board while the other guy was fussing with his jammed Broomhandle.

Sorry, just had to rant. Did anybody else see that?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Lame but indicative of modern "comparison" TV. I see very few that aren't fixed ahead of time or in editing.
The "top ten" series on the Military Channel is one of the worst for adjusting parameters in judging.
I've got to wonder that since they didn't re-film and just dump the jam footage that it happened more than once. After all, why stop the clock when you can stop the film and start again if you have a reasonable expectation that the failure is a one-off incident.

 

[WardenWolf]

Though to be fair, these guns are 70+ years old at this point and may not be functioning as well as they were when issued. The 7.63 Mauser cartridge is an unusual bottleneck design. This actually improves feeding. I'm more inclined to believe the problem is more to do with the gun's age and wear and tear than an actual design problem.

 

[Deus Machina]

In an apples-to-apples comparison, yeah, it sucks.
If there's the notation that it's to be compared in perfect working order, it makes sense.

 

[toivo]

I'm not blaming the guns. I just think that if it's an autoloader vs. revolver comparison, jams should be part of the competition. They shouldn't stop the clock while he clears it. It isn't fair to the revolver, IMO.

 

[ngnrd]

Maybe I just missed it, but I didn't notice that they "stopped the clock". In fact... as far as I remember, there was no clock - just a straight up head-to-head shoot. The guy with the Mauser did call the jam (stovepipe, if I recall), and called "clear" after, but I thought the Webley was still being reloaded while the Mauser was being cleared.

If I missed it, and the guy with the Webley benched the revolver while the Mauser was being cleared, it was good range etiquette. If not, it was a legit heads-up win for the Mauser.

Either way, if the targets were shooting back, I'd rather have a reliable wheel gun than a semi known to be ... temperamental. Of course, I'd rather have a reliable auto for the extra capacity and ease of reloading. And, in spite of the jam, I think that was point of the comparison.

 

[cane]

I noticed that the Webley shooter was thumb cocking it instead of shooting DA. Also there was a "speed loader" available for the Webley during this time frame, that would have evened the reload time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BZnWx97HwD4

 

[unspellable]

Broomhandles

The broomhandle has a reputation for one example being extremely reliable and the next example being temperamental. This effect has been laid to a sensitivity to manufacturing tolerances.

For myself, having had four or five of them over the years, (all in 7.63 Mauser) I've never had a single jam.

 

[toivo]

Maybe I just missed it, but I didn't notice that they "stopped the clock". In fact... as far as I remember, there was no clock - just a straight up head-to-head shoot. The guy with the Mauser did call the jam (stovepipe, if I recall), and called "clear" after, but I thought the Webley was still being reloaded while the Mauser was being cleared.

If I missed it, and the guy with the Webley benched the revolver while the Mauser was being cleared, it was good range etiquette. If not, it was a legit heads-up win for the Mauser.

Actually you're right -- there wasn't an actual clock. I guess what I meant is that they stopped the action. As I recall it, the Webley shooter did bench his revolver until the jam was cleared. I think somebody also said "Time out" or something similar. I don't know about the etiquette part -- I thought in a competition a malfunction was the competitor's tough luck. Maybe the Webley guy was just being a good sport.

 

[ngnrd]

I think it was intended to be more of a demonstration than a competition. Either way, it's entertainment TV, not a documentary, or investigative journalism. The script was written, the scenes were shot, the footage was edited, and the results were pre-determined - just like every other entertainment program on TV.

 

[Jim K]

Just as valid as the other TV garbage, like comparing dancers, rap artists, or bust sizes.

Jim

 

[Billy Shears]

I don't know about this comparison and its protocols, but if I had to carry one into combat, I think I'd rather have the Mauser -- provided I had one that was reliable. I have a Webley VI in the original .455 chambering, and while it's a fun gun to take to the range, the trigger is so heavy it's difficult to shoot accurately in DA mode. It can be done, but it takes extra effort and concentration to keep from pulling the gun of target while trying to press that heavy trigger back -- a distraction I'd rather not have in a combat situation. I suspect most of the officers who carried them, if they ever had to shoot, thumb-cocked their revolvers for anything except very close range shots, where speed was more important.

 

[lemaymiami]

I occasionally watch shows on the military channel (preferring the straight up history segments...). Any time I watch the modern re-creations or comparisons of weaponry from any era - I never take it seriously, viewing it just as entertainment.

If I'm not mistaken those big bore Webleys, although slow and not very "user friendly" were usually used in the heat of close quarters (really close quarters...) combat and were one heckuva lot better than a stick, bayonet or rock. In their era I've have been tickled pink to have one "in extremis..."

 

[Jim K]

Remember that those shows are about entertainment, not providing technical information. My favorite was the "Bonnie and Clyde" show on the History channel that depicted an AK-47 and an SKS; I am pretty sure B&C didn't use either, but what do I know compared to the History Channel experts?

Oh, and the Ford coupe they showed. The gangs didn't use coupes; they used sedans so a gunner in the back seat could fire at the cops.

The "History" channel in particular commonly uses what I call "guys with guns" film. I imagine some director yelling at an underling to "get me some pictures of guys with guns!" One result was a segment of "WWI film" with entrenched British troops being attacked by the French!

And German tanks plowing through the snow to attack France in 1940 - in one of the hottest summers Europe had had in decades.

Jim