Triple 7

[rodwha]

I've read many posts that state you must reduce the powder charge by 15% of max to be safe.

I've also read many posts that state you shouldn't seat a projectile firmly (hard) as the powder doesn't like heavy compression. I've also read a couple of posts that claim otherwise.

Here is their information:

"Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%."

It doesn't say you must reduce the charge to be safe. This is what it actually states:

"The owner's manual for your firearm should specify a maximum allowable load. Under no circumstances should this maximum be exceeded."

When talking about seating the projectile with slight compression the only place I read that is with loading in cartridges. This is what it states:

" Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder." And "The case is filled with powder to a level that will provide light compression of the powder (1/16" to 1/8") when the bullet is seated."

But this is what it states under flintlocks and percussion firearms:

"Seat the projectile firmly against the powder."

I don't understand why light compression would be necessary for a cartridge, but not wanted in a BP chamber. Maybe since the cartridge has to expand in the chamber?

I'm certainly not being argumentative, going against the common beliefs, which may be correct, but seeking the truth. I've e-mailed Hogdgon's in the past with no reply.

 

[rodwha]

I'm curious as to how people seat their projectiles slightly and get any reliable and consistent seating pressure. It seems the only way to be consistent would be with some sort of spring that would bend once a certain pressure was reached.

 

[MtnCreek]

It sounds like they are recommending more compression in the in the muzzle loader than in a cartridge.

With typical BP, I compress the charge till firm. My only exp w/ 777 is with pellets. With pellets, no compression is recommended. I mark the rod to insure same seating depth.

 

[arcticap]

I suspect that one of the main reasons that firm compression is called for with muzzle loaders, and particularly with rifles, is that 777 is known to form a hard crusty ring in the breech that's often due to using hotter 209 primers and because of the large powder charges.
If folks don't swab between every shot, the crud ring can create a false sense of having seated a tight fitting sabot on top of the powder column. Any air gap can be extremely dangerous.
Compressing the powder firmly may also produce consistent velocity if it's done in a consistent fashion and in a clean barrel. Marking the ramrod to show the seating depth could serve a dual purpose, for loading safety and for ramming consistency.

 

[BADUNAME30]

777 is known to form a hard crusty ring in the breech

Steve, do you know if this is also a characteristic of Goex ?
I ask because i do have a definate 'ring' in the breech of one of my Hawkens and i have used only Goex in this rifle for the almost 30 years that i've owned it.

 

[arcticap]

I don't use Goex but yes I believe that it can be a characteristic.
Your description evidently shows that there's some kind of detonation ring in the breech.
I would think that with proper maintenance, perhaps by vigorously brushing the area that it would disappear.
However, there's also the possibility of erosion that may be similar to gas cutting along with some pitting.
I don't know the exact situation with your breech, but developing a detonation ring of accumulated powder residue isn't too unusual during a shooting session, especially when loading with large powder charges.
But when cleaning or swabbing doesn't remove it then I would have to wonder if there's permanent damage.
Even when using Pyrodex, a temporary detonation ring can develop. If kept under control by removal then the salts won't start eating away at the metal over the long term.
If any pitting develops then the residue can get embedded making it even more difficult to completely remove.
I usually load moderate powder charges which generally keeps the accumulation down to a minimum so that I don't notice any resistance during loading. But I tend to over-saturate the patches with Bore Butter which also helps to keep the fouling soft between loadings.

 

[rodwha]

Seating firmly was also stated with flintlocks.
Is this ring less likely to form, or take much longer to form when not using 209's, or when using less hot ignition or smaller powder charges?
I can't say that I've noticed anything in the chambers of my cylinder, but I haven't really inspected them either.

 

[arcticap]

Is this ring less likely to form, or take much longer to form when not using 209's, or when using less hot ignition or smaller powder charges?

Yes.
The hard, crusty 777 crud ring doesn't usually form when using #11's.
And many rifle shooter's swab between shots when using heavy hunting loads to minimize any heavy accumulation.
But revolver cylinders are different because the loads are smaller and there isn't any rifling in the chambers within which the normal residue can become more easily compacted.
And rifles use under-size balls with a soft patch, whereas revolvers are loaded with over-size balls which actually scrape the cylinder walls to some extent.
But 777 is probably still the cleanest conventional substitute powder made.

 

[BADUNAME30]

Thanx Steve.
I believe that what i am going to to have to do is eventualy remove the breech from this rifle to see exactly what is goin on in there.
I can actualy feel a 'lip' or buildup down in there that won't 'chip' away even when attempting this with a non jagged stainless cleaning rod.I can't really call it a "ring" tho.It favors the top of the breech/Bbl and the lock side.
The rest of that area feels the same as my other Hawken rifles in that you can feel just a bit of a 'difference' where the Bbl meest the breech.
I should add that this is the same Hawken that i had the detonation in last summer.

Mmm..perhaps i should start a new thread on this so as not to highjack Rodwha's post.

 

[tom e gun]

How is the breechblock attached to the barrel on front stuffers anyway?

 

[BADUNAME30]

On a rifle such as a T/C Hawken, it is simply screwed into the brech end of the Bbl.
Here is a pic of a T/C style breech plug.
This one is for a real stuffer... stone sparked.



This one is for that 'other' kind.


Oh, and i knew you meant to say breech plug and not "breech block"

 

[Curator]

The T7 crud-ring forms regardless of ignition source from my experience. Wiping the bore with a slightly damp patch after each shot prevents it from becoming a problem. I like T7 as a black powder substitute as it is definitely more powerful measure for measure. Real black powder leaves a lot of residue in the breech as well.

 

[rodwha]

So is the "reduce your load by 15%" a false belief? I feel my ROA can handle a steady diet of full loads, but what about a '58 Remington, or '62 Colt or '63 Remington Pocket?
And the same with the seat your revolver's ball lightly? Someone (here?) stated they used a large volume of 777 and compressed heavily w/o a wide range of velocity difference on their chrono.
It would be nice to see someone with a chrono and 777 give it a try.

 

[mitchz]

My guess is that when you load cartridges on a press you can crush the powder and it will not fire. I found this out the hard way years ago by over compressing the powder in a .58 and having to pull the ball and use the puller to loosen the powder. I'm now experimenting with this in .357 for my lever action. So if I over compress the powder before I get the same velosity as my smokless I'll post my findings.

 

[mykeal]

So is the "reduce your load by 15%" a false belief?

I think you misunderstand the reason for reducing 777 loads by 15%. It has nothing to do with what the gun can withstand. Black powder revolvers can safely fire full chambers of any black powder or black powder substitute, including 777, period. The 777 reduction is to provide a load which is approximately equivalent, in terms of muzzle velocity or energy, to a given amount of real black powder.

Someone (here?) stated they used a large volume of 777 and compressed heavily w/o a wide range of velocity difference on their chrono.

If you wander the internet enough you'll find pretty much anything stated. I suggest that the manufacturer's data should be trusted over internet ramblings - we have no idea under what conditions some people did their tests, nor what condition their equipment was in. Chronographs in particular are not calibrated nor maintained by 99% of their owners. And what equipment, method and standard was used to establish 'heavily compressed'?

 

[rodwha]

mykeal: I asked these questions because it seems to be a common theme with people on the forums, the need to reduce max loads for safety and the need for lightly compress loads for consistency, which Hodgdon's site doesn't state, unless I am misunderstanding, which I may very well be doing.

But Hodgdon's doesn't exactly state that i can load up my chambers full of 777 either, though I see it that it kind of implies you can as it states to go by factory max's.

"If you wander the internet enough you'll find pretty much anything stated."

No doubt!

"And what equipment, method and standard was used to establish 'heavily compressed'?"

Or what lightly is. It seems lightly is much harder to replicate from chamber to chamber as heavy would be. And because of such it seems like there would be a wider velocity variance in a cylinder full.

 

[mykeal]

I don't see many posts advising to reduce max loads for safety. If that's the case there are a lot of misinformed people shooting black powder. The reason for not using max loads is because they're universally less accurate.

It is true that the manufacturers unilaterally state that loads above their recommended maximums are to be avoided, but I've never seen one suggest reducing those max recommended loads for safety.

I've said before and I'll say again: black powder revolvers can be safely fired using full chamber loads of any black powder or black powder substitute. And anyone who knows me knows that I'm pretty anal about safety. As for single shot long guns and pistols, the concept of a full chamber is a bit obscure, but it is a fact that there is a 'maximum' load for such designs in which only so much powder can be burned, and anything over that is just expelled. Again, accuracy is the reason for using less than that value.

Regarding Hodgdon's recommendations, the following is from their 777 loading notes page:
http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html
Under Triple Seven In Cartridges:

Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder... Do not heavily compress powder charges.

Under both Flintlock and Percussion Firearms:

Seat the projectile firmly against the powder

You're correct in that they do not explicitly state compression affects consistency. That bit of wisdom comes from distilling personal experience. Like any internet advice it should be taken with a grain (shaker full?) of salt and verified by testing yourself. I have no doubt, however, that you'll find it to be true.

 

[Patocazador]

As I understand it, 777 is a smokeless-type powder that's been "monkeyed" with to produce smoke and lower pressures. BlackHorn 209 is similar in this regard. BlackHorn suggests NOT compressing loads for best accuracy and only using smokeless powder solvents and other cleaners, NOT water-based cleaners. However, BlackHorn is not "dirty" like 777 and many reloads can be done without swabbing the barrel unlike 777.

 

[Tinpan58]

777 is just about all I use, I sometimes use pyrodex, you can fill the deference in the recoil, 777 has a bit more kick to it. I use 777 with filler all the time. My standard load for my 1858s, cap and ball now is 25gr 777 ff 10gr corn meal, no grease Remington #10 caps. I have also used the 777 ff in 45 long colt for my conversion cylinders, I use 25gr 777 ff then a veggie wad .030 12.5gr corn meal another veggie wad and a 200 gr flat nose lubed boolet that i cast. I have also use the same load with a .454 round ball in the 45 colt case but instead of the last veggie wad i use a lubed wad and seat the ball just past half way in the case then crimp it. The 777 ff, is much more mellow than the fff. I know they say not to use filler but, 777 ff fills about the same as pyrodex p. and I think you would need a much bigger charge than I use for any problem. How dose the powder know there is a wad sitting on top of it instead of a ball.

 

[MCgunner]

I use T7 in my inline, works very well in that gun. My Hawken prefers Pyrodex. I'm sure BP would be good if I could get it easily, but I'm good with Pyrodex in that gun.

I shoot T7 in my revolvers, pack the HECK out of it. I download it and I don't shoot it in my open top brasser, only Pyrodex P in that gun, light charge at that with a cornmeal filler. My Remmy likes 30 grains of Pyrodex for accuracy, though. I stuff my ROA to the gills with T7 under a 220 hollow point conical (Lee mold) and get accurate loads at over 1200 fps. It's a real fire breather. The gun can handle it, though. Biggest problem with such a heavy load and why I would only really consider it for hunting, by the forth round, the bullets are pulling and beginning to foul with the forcing cone.

All in all, I burn more Pyrodex than anything else, but I do hunt with 777 in the inline.

 

[Jaymo]

My guess would be that, with cartridges, the case is crimped into the bullet. This allows pressure to build faster than with a C&B, because the case is holding the bullet tighter than the chamber of a C&B revolver holds the ball. More pressure is required to unseat the bullet from the case. The higher pressure, could cause the burn rate to flake out and cause erratic performance.

 

[Gatofeo]

I would trust Hodgdon, with its pressure instruments and trained personnel to interpret data, over any statement that, "my gun can handle it."
When subjected to high stress, guns don't always "let go" on the first, 10th or 100th shot. But they are prematurely worn and may be weakened to the point of finally failing.
Yes, the Ruger Old Army is a very strong gun, but Hodgdon 777 is not a measure-for-measure direct equivalent to black powder, like Pyrodex is designed to be.
When you're dealing with a cap and ball revolver, you're dealing with an entirely different ignition system (duh). Because of that, caps and nipples cannot be interpreted for over-pressure like standard primers might be.
There's also no case (duh) to measure for head expansion.
Cap and ball revolvers have no ready indicators of over-pressure. You can measure velocity with some precision, but velocity is never an indicator of pressure. Never.
Because you're using a very soft lead projectile, it is more plastic than a projectile hardened with tin and antimony.
This relatively soft projectile (pure lead or slightly harder) at maximum velocities, I strongly suspect, begins to flatten like trying to push an oversized wad of gum through a hole. This effect has been observed in cartridge guns; no reason it couldn't exist in cap and ball revolvers as well.
The effect comes from the projectile being momentarily halted as it enters the rear of the barrel (forcing cone) but pressures are still mounting against the projectile's base and causing the projectile to widen while it hesitates.
The end result is an oversized projectile being pushed into the forcing cone, and forcibly reduced to bore size -- a recipe for sudden leaps in pressure.
I would follow Hodgdon's recommendations for 777, and not exceed it.
There is a reason why Hodgdon counsels to reduce loads by 15 percent: it generates higher pressures than black powder -- volume for volume.
Hodgdon advises to use relatively light compression in muzzleloading rifles, but I don't recall that it advises the same thing for cartridges. I haven't seen that advice for cap and ball revolvers. When I use 777, I seat the lubricated felt wad firmly on the powder, then seat the ball firmly on the felt wad.
I seat the felt wad separately in all my loads, because it gives me a better feel for how much pressure I'm applying.
Because I have an ample supply of black powder I don't often use 777 or Pyrodex. But if it is difficult to find black powder in your area, I'd suggest that the next-best propellant for cap and ball revolvers is Pyrodex P. It may be used volume-for-volume with black powder, and less trickier to work with.
I trust Hodgdon's labs and ballisticians. I'm way of postings in message boards, whatever the propellant or caliber.

 

[Jaymo]

I also seat the wads separately. I put powder in the chamber, put wad in the chamber, ram down wad, repeat 5 times.
THEN, I load/seat my balls.