Troopers to be Charged for NFA Violation

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Leatherneck

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This from the 8 Feb Belleville News-Democrat, via Free Republic:
Nine chiefs of police have endorsed a letter written by Belleville Police Chief Dave Ruebhausen urging that three Illinois state troopers charged with weapons violations not to be prosecuted.

If they are guilty, they should be punished administratively, according to Ruebhausen's letter given Tuesday to the News-Democrat.

The letter also was endorsed by two state senators, two sheriffs and retired Belleville Police Chief Terry Delaney, a former U.S. marshal.

But a statement on Tuesday issued by interim U.S. Attorney Edward McNally cautioned, "These matters are now in public court ... no doubt many of the officials (listed in the letter) will look forward to an opportunity to have a complete understanding of all the facts in the case...."

The statement added, "Many would say that at the charging level, they (troopers) should be treated the same as any other citizen."

The troopers -- Greg Mugge of Jerseyville, John Yard of Collinsville and James Vest of O'Fallon -- are charged in federal court in East St. Louis with illegal possession of automatic weapons. They face a maximum of 10 years behind bars and a $250,000 fine.

Vest and Yard are assigned to the State Police in Collinsville and Mugge works out of Litchfield. They were suspended with pay pending a hearing before the state police merit review board.

A physician, former Glen Carbon resident Dr. Harold Griffiths of Spaulding, also is charged. All were released on their own recognizance.

The troopers could have legally possessed automatic rifles or "machine guns" on their jobs if certain federal paperwork had been completed. Under certain circumstances, this would allow them to take the rifles home.

Ruebhausen urged that the troopers, who are said to have unblemished records, be disciplined internally.

His letter stated, "We do not see how the citizens are made safer by placing these troopers in jail."

In an interview, Ruebhausen said, "You're not supposed to own (illegal) weapons... But the bottom line is that with all the thugs out on the street, is society served by putting these officers in jail?"

McNally's written statement, released after a copy of Ruebhausen's letter was sent to the U.S. attorney's office, stated, "The United States respects the views of the chiefs, sheriffs and the senators and the fact that they too, have to make decisions every day about whether to treat public officials the same as other citizens."

The statement continued, "Every man and woman who has worn the badge has risked their life to protect others. That is one of the reasons there are few situations more challenging than allegations that a police officer has violated the law...."

Mearl Justus, the sheriff of St. Clair County, declined to add his name to the letter.

"They asked me and I said I'd rather not sign it because I don't think anybody knows enough about what happened."

The charges were announced Jan. 17 at a news conference at the U.S. attorney's office. At that time, State Police Director Larry Trent said the troopers "... are not above the law." He could not be reached for comment Tuesday.

According to information from the news conference, the weapons were rifles, an M-16 designed to fire automatically and two AR-15 semiautomatic rifles that had been converted to fire fully automatic, or as long as the trigger is depressed.

Vest, 39, is a weapons instructor who purchased his M-16 in 1998 and used it often for police firearms instruction. He allegedly told police that he sometimes took the weapon home.

Sen. Bill Haine, D-Alton, a former Madison County state's attorney, said he was "stunned" when he read that the troopers had been charged.

"In this case there does not appear to be any conduct intended to violate the statute," he said.

Besides Ruebhausen, the area police chiefs who signed the letter are, Chris Sullivan, Alton; Richard Miller, Granite City; Scott Williams, Collinsville; Patrick Delaney, Sauget; Joe Brauer, Waterloo; Joe Edwards, Columbia; William Webber, Wood River; Darren Carlton, East Alton; and Brian Vielweber of Smithton.

Williams, the Collinsville chief, said that while he allowed his name to be added to the letter, he is still in favor of criminal charges, if the facts warrant.

"I'm not saying they shouldn't get in trouble over this," he said, " (but) they shouldn't be made an example of because they are officers."

Sen. James Watson, R-Greenville, whose name is on the letter, could not be reached. Delaney also could not be reached.

Bond County Sheriff Jeff Brown and Madison County Sheriff Bob Hertz also added their names to the letter. Hertz was out of town but Brown said, "I see this as driving a wedge between (federal officers) and local and state law enforcement."

Some of the responses from Freepers are distinctly non-THR LEO-bashing. Let's not have that here please.

TC
 
We had a similar situation here but the feds did not get involved. It was handled in state court. The state court found that the local officers had done nothing wrong and were allowed to keep their machineguns.

Wonder what upset the feds?
 
Hmmm.

Well, here's my stance on it: let it play out in court. If I were found in illegal possession of an automatic weapon, whether I intended to violate any statutes or not, there's no "internal disciplinary action" that would be suggested in place of 10 years in the slam.

I assume that there may have been some confusion on the part of the officers over whether as LEO's they were exempt from the requirements (for instance, they reason that they can use the weapons on the job, so perhaps there's no big deal in taking them home). I'll grant that they probably didn't intend to violate the law. But I still think they need to ride this one out in our jujishal shisshem.
 
A physician, former Glen Carbon resident Dr. Harold Griffiths of Spaulding, also is charged.
Does he also get the same deal? If so, then I do not see a problem.

Some more info on this:
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:GaMF0Vr98rIJ:www.ksdk.com/news/illinois_article.aspx%3Fstoryid%3D90860+Dr.+Harold+Griffiths&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8

By Steve Jankowski
Illinois Bureau Chief

(KSDK) - Four men, including three Illinois State Police Officers, have been charged with illegal possession of a machine gun. The charges were filed last week in federal court, but sealed until Tuesday afternoon.

In announcing the indictments, U.S. Attorney Edward McNally stressed "no one is above the law."

John Yard, 36, of Collinsville, Illinois, has been with the State Police for nine years. He is classified as a special agent and had been assigned to the FBI's Public Corruption Task Force. He claims he obtained the weapon, which was illegally converted to an automatic weapon, from Dr. Harold Griffiths, 69.

Griffiths, formerly of Glen Carbon, was also charged. The indictment says the weapon was recovered from his home in Spaulding, Illinois.

Sgt. James Vest, 39, of O'Fallon, Illinois, has been with the Illinois State Police for 16 years. He allegedly told investigators he bought his machine gun from a California gun company in 1998. The indictment alleges he kept it at home, but sometimes stored it at District 11 headquarters in Collinsville.

Trooper Greg Mugge, 51, of Jerseyville is a 21-year veteran of the Illinois State Police and had been working out of District 18 in Litchfield. He allegedly purchased his machine gun from a federally-licensed gun dealer from Harrisburg, Illinois almost 25 years ago.

Illinois State Police Director Larry Trent expressed his disappointment at the charges against officers whom he said "had otherwise very good service records." But he echoed the sentiments of everyone involved in the announcement, that no one is above the law.

The four men charged in this case were arraigned Tuesday morning in U.S. District Court in East St. Louis, and released to their own recognizance. If convicted, each faces a maximum of ten years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
 
His letter stated, "We do not see how the citizens are made safer by placing these troopers in jail."
If it were me, I suspect the signers of that letter would have no problem seeing society being safer with me in jail for the same violation. Sorry, but they're trying to protect their associates. If you don't like it, change the law, but don't ask for special treatment.
 
Re: NFA and all the other Gun Restrictive Measures .

Sure is a waste of lots of monies and manhours. I mean just really what has come out of these Restrictions?

I got an idea. Why don't we get rid of all these Restrictions and leave We The People the hell alone.

Elected Officals can do the job the COTUS and BoR outlines for them.

Time spent Gubmint Meddlin' could be use for more productive matters. Free People could be more productive in whatever pursuits they choose.

It is never the tool itself, it is always the intent of user.

Be it a M16, Elected Office, Word Proccessor, Pen & Paper, or sharp pointy stick.

Hell even water may used with the intent of doing harm to something or someone. Drowning, Scalding a Child, Pouring into Internal Combustion engine...




Steve
 
Public confidence in the judicial system is always fractured when police are treated differently when they commit crimes. They should definitely be charged and prosecuted in federal court.

"In this case there does not appear to be any conduct intended to violate the statute,"
The conduct is possession. Someone should remind Sen. Bill Haine exactly what that means.

Wonder what upset the feds?
Like is says...they hadn’t submitted the proper paperwork.

If I had tried to possess my firearms in NYC without submitting the proper paperwork, I would have gone to jail. Right or wrong, the law is the law and it has to be obeyed.
 
They commited a crime. I don't see what the debate is.

It's very sad that they didn't go about doing it the legal way. However, if joe citizen did the same thing he would be crushed. I can't see why they should be treated differently in this case.

However, I think that they should be cut some slack due to the fact that they have been good citizens and contributed positively to society. It's not as if they are career bad guys.
 
If those guns are not in the NFA registry as property of their agencies then they should be prosecuted like any other citizen with an illegal MG.

If those guns are properly papered and owned by the agencies I don't see what the problem is. How each agency issues weapons is their own business.
 
Edward McNally-- "The statement added, "Many would say that at the charging level, they (troopers) should be treated the same as any other citizen.""

THE SAME AS ANY OTHER CITIZEN. McNally has it right.


LEOs are not above the law. They allegedly broken the law. They should have a fair trial, and be sentenced (if found guilty) THE SAME AS ANY OTHER CITIZEN.
 
First of all, I do not agree with NFA and all the other INFRINGEMENTS.

But until they are revoked, we should be equally treated in the eyes of the law.

This does not mean however that these guys should see jail time. I do believe a fine is in order and the felony conviction (assuming it goes that far) placed on their record. The police officers involved should not be allowed to be police officers again.

Another side of me still says that if they can "get away with it," then good for them because after all, they are citizens living under UNconstitutional laws too.
 
Slam 'em then change the law. Make a big publicity push out of the slammed ossifers and doctor but change the freakin' law. Then go back and offer pardons etc to anyone in the joint because of the law.

The law is the problem. Something about shoes pinching keeps running through my mind. :fire:
 
Soybomb said:
If it were me, I suspect the signers of that letter would have no problem seeing society being safer with me in jail for the same violation. Sorry, but they're trying to protect their associates. If you don't like it, change the law, but don't ask for special treatment.


I must agree with soybomb.
Officer or not, a crime is a crime. If your going to throw "good citizens" in jail for owning illegal weapons then your forced to throw "good officers" in jail as well.

These guys are aimed to spend time in prison because their papers were not in order.
 
They should bretreated no different than someone they would arrest for having an illegally possessed machine gun. As a matter of fact they are worse. No sympathy. Put me on the jury. Maybe they would come to the realization that the law is unjust and needs to be changed. If the police never have to pay the consequences of the laws we all live under then they will continue to stand behind, give support to their buddies the corrupt politicians who appoint them and support their pet UNION. Public employees should not be allowed to unionize period.
 
Vest, 39, is a weapons instructor who purchased his M-16 in 1998 and used it often for police firearms instruction. He allegedly told police that he sometimes took the weapon home.

Sen. Bill Haine, D-Alton, a former Madison County state's attorney, said he was "stunned" when he read that the troopers had been charged.

"In this case there does not appear to be any conduct intended to violate the statute," he said.

The law is the law Ignorance of the law is no excuse, that what ossifer Vest would tell you while he was arresting you at the range after hearing you fire a machinegun, or after you failed to produce your FOID for that 10/22 you were shooting.

These are police officers they should, and did know better, they thought they were above the law.

I would throw the book at them.

Goose Meet Gander.
 
WT said:
We had a similar situation here but the feds did not get involved. It was handled in state court. The state court found that the local officers had done nothing wrong and were allowed to keep their machineguns.

Wonder what upset the feds?

What upset the feds is that it's a federal law that was being violated. They still could prosecute your locals.
 
Rockstar said:
What upset the feds is that it's a federal law that was being violated. They still could prosecute your locals.

I'd say that what upset the feds isn't known yet. There may have been more involved in the acquistion and disposition of these weapons than is known. Either that, or somebody ticked off the feds at some point concerning this situation (i.e. trying to get it dropped before charges were filed) and tried it with the wrong person.
 
According to information from the news conference, the weapons were rifles, an M-16 designed to fire automatically and two AR-15 semiautomatic rifles that had been converted to fire fully automatic, or as long as the trigger is depressed.

That may have been what ticked off the feds. They put in "Da Switch" on two AR-15's. This is not a case "Ooops, I accidently brought an M-16 home with me when I left it in the trunk of my squad car."

Yes, NFA is wrong. I really want to see Director Trent come out in favor of repealing it. Then I'll watch pigs fly out my butt.

When I was an MP we were held to a higher standard then "ordinary" soldiers. I Article 15'd (and maxed out) one of my soldiers who went the wrong way down a one way street. Sorry, no slack for LEO's who break the law. Plus given what other "problems" the ISP has had recently there is definitely something rotten in Denmark.
 
I would say that what upset the feds might be that the gun was in the possession of the Doctor. That means the gun was in the possession of a 3rd party who was not an LEO. Not only did they take it home for personal use, but they let someone borrow it or illegally transferred it at worst. I am curious how that doctor entered into the picture.

The other issue I have is these guys are supposed to be enforcing the law. I think they should at least have some idea of what the law and regulations are. Sounds like they didn't.
 
If MechAg94's theory is correct, doesn't that lend more credence to the us vs them theory of law enforcement.

"Nothing is better for thee than me"

Sam
 
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