Trucking

[larry_minn]

NavyLCDR...Could you clarify this...


Try as I might, I couldn't find anything supporting this.

It's not true here in AK, and from what I could tell, it's unsupported anywhere.

Regards home/truck. I would think its similar to RV. When you are parked/using RV as "home" its treated similar to hotel room. Now we are talking place its legal to set up shop at. Not side of highway. A truck stop, campground (where you have spot) etc.

I have not looked at book for yrs myself, don't recall wording. Thing is we were going to NY CITY so it was moot point. Not that I didn't think a gun would have been a dang good idea. We got lucky only minor damage to truck door. Hits with a baton, they couldn't get good swing on window....

 

[kyletx1911]

I am blessed the owners all carry my route keeps me in all the states where i can carry chl are allowed.

 

[NavyLCDR]

NavyLCDR...Could you clarify this...


Try as I might, I couldn't find anything supporting this.

It's not true here in AK, and from what I could tell, it's unsupported anywhere.

On that one, I don't have specific statutes. In general, in regards to firearms possession, when the person is intending to abide in, sleep in, live in a location that is designed to be occupied and lived in, that is considered to be their place of abode.

Examples of mobile abodes would be RVs, Tents, Trailers, Campers, Sleepers, and Hotels. if there are actual living accommodations in the vehicle, when the vehicle is stopped an being used as an abode even for just a few hours, the living accommodations becomes that persons place of abode.

One would be very hard pressed to say their car is ever a bona fide place of abode just because they are sleeping in it since the car does not have a space that designed to be a living accommodation.

This has nothing to do with DOT regulations, it falls under the common law definition of abode.

 

[Rob G]

Examples of mobile abodes would be RVs, Tents, Trailers, Campers, Sleepers, and Hotels. if there are actual living accommodations in the vehicle, when the vehicle is stopped an being used as an abode even for just a few hours, the living accommodations becomes that persons place of abode.

It's an interesting thought and I do wonder if it's ever been tested in court in regards to rigs in particular. I know I wouldn't volunteer to be the test case but I'm also out of that business too. I think even if you do successfully argue that the truck is essentially an abode or "hotel room" you'd be still be in trouble as many of the "problem" states/cities tend to restrict firearms possession in general, even in a private residences.

 

[NavyLCDR]

http://www.thetruckersreport.com/tr...y-regulations/11811-firearms-in-truck-10.html

Ok here is a question for diesel bear. I was listening to the lockridge report the other day and this subject came up during the ask the law segment that has the retired texas trooper as the guest taking questions. The trooper explained to the caller that if you travel through a state that does not rec your ccw that you have to store the gun unloaded in a non accesible place to the driver. he said that once you were PARKED in a truck stop you could load the gun and keep it for protection. He said it would be the same at that point as having a gun in your home.

This is exactly correct. Most states have what are known as castle laws. It applies to anyplace you are going to sleep, motel, tent, truck or whatever. You are allowed to have a loaded gun for protection.

 

[Rob G]

He said it would be the same at that point as having a gun in your home.

Except that some states require you to have a permit, from that state, just to have a gun in your home. An example would be New York:

But if you stop in NY and spend the night in a motel/hotel/camp ground etc you are in violation of NY law and can be arrested if found with a firearm. - from www.handgunlaw.us

There are other states where this would be the case as well.

I'm not DB, but I know Connecticut requires you to get a non-resident carry permit to do anything but drive straight through the state with a handgun. They specifically require you to have the permit, even if the handgun is locked up, if you spend the night in the state. NYC and Chicago? Forget it, handguns are illegal to possess period. Maryland has language in its law forbidding handgun possession in a parking lot accessible to the public - http://www.thetruckersreport.com/truckingindustryforum/trucking-industry-regulations/11811-firearms-in-truck-10.html

Not exactly correct, there are some people that can legally possess handguns in NYC and Chicago but I'm betting none of them are out of state truck drivers. Still, you get the point of what he's saying in that quote.

This is exactly correct. Most states have what are known as castle laws. It applies to anyplace you are going to sleep, motel, tent, truck or whatever. You are allowed to have a loaded gun for protection.

Not true. Castle doctrine laws are about use of force to defend yourself, not firearms possession in general. Although it would make sense that most states that would pass Castle Doctrine probably are very permissive about firearms possession the passage of that particular law does not require that they be so.

The absolutely BEST thing to do is go to EVERY state website or by phone that you ever plan on driving in and get the information from the horses mouth and NOT rely on truck stop lawyers! Then do this EVERY YEAR as laws change. NOW you know what state you can drive in with your weapon!

Very true.

Do not fall for a truckers word alone even if he says he has a ccw!

Even more true.

you shouldn't trust a police officer's word either. They aren't always familiar with the law, and some of them will state things they've heard as if they were fact,

....

 

[AlaskaMan]

Sorry, but posting a link to an internet trucking forum where an unknown poster heard a retired Texas state trooper say something on a radio program about what he thinks is legal is hardly sound advice.

There might be a case for an expectation of privacy where an exchange of money is made for a dedicated overnight space, but a truck stop or rest area parking lot does not convey any such protection. So far, no one has provided any specific examples, just hearsay and company policies.

Many truckers may carry firearms, but stretching a castle doctrine to a semi tractor seems to be just that...a stretch.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Sorry, but posting a link to an internet trucking forum where an unknown poster heard a retired Texas state trooper say something on a radio program about what he thinks is legal is hardly sound advice.

There might be a case for an expectation of privacy where an exchange of money is made for a dedicated overnight space, but a truck stop or rest area parking lot does not convey any such protection. So far, no one has provided any specific examples, just hearsay and company policies.

Many truckers may carry firearms, but stretching a castle doctrine to a semi tractor seems to be just that...a stretch.

How about if you show us a regulation that prohibits a trucker from carrying a firearm in accordance with the state laws of whatever state they happen to be in at the time?

 

[stickhauler]

Well, I am an over-the-road driver, have been for 35 years plus, and have never had a DOT inspector get into my sleeper for any reason. Their role in law enforcement is to insure that your truck meets the safety regulations, not root through your bunk.

The ONLY time anyone in all that time has entered my truck to search has been when I crossed into Canada, or returned to the US.

If I'm driving in the US, there is a firearm in the truck, either on my person, secured in a locked container in the bunk, or loaded on the night stand beside my bunk. Even NYC, or Chicago. My feelings on the matter is, I'd prefer to be tried by 12 for violating their idiotic regulations than be carried by 6 because I had no means to defend myself.

Most places a truck goes to load or deliver in major urban areas aren't really nice neighborhoods. Yes, there are places that prohibit firearms on their property, but the day some rent-a-cop working security at a shipper or receiver thinks they're searching my truck is the day I'm leaving the industry.

If I know I'm going to Canada, the gun stays home. If I know I'm delivering to or loading at a military installation it stays home.

But what exactly would you consider the sleeper berth of a truck to be if not your home?

 

[AlaskaMan]

How about if you show us a regulation that prohibits a trucker from carrying a firearm in accordance with the state laws of whatever state they happen to be in at the time?

Sorry if it came across as a challenge.

The OP’s question was “How can one drive around without adjusting to each state's requirements (i.e. California) and carry firearms in a big rig?
Is there some kind of 'peaceful passing' they get when doing so or would it just be completely illegal?”

Well, sort of…

18 USC 926A…” Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. “

But having looked in a past threads about commercial vehicles and firearms, you already knew that...


This happened when the firearm is in the sleeper portion of your "abode"...

http://www.buffalonews.com/city/police-courts/police-blotter/article512698.ece

Sometimes even FOPA won't protect you...
http://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/Surprise-Arizona-truck-driver-arrested-for-1744065.php


All I'm sayin' is that a truck is more likely going to be treated as a vehicle, rather than your house. See Carroll V United States.

peace

 

[newbuckeye]

Well, sort of…

18 USC 926A…” Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. “

But having looked in a past threads about commercial vehicles and firearms, you already knew that...


This happened when the firearm is in the sleeper portion of your "abode"...

http://www.buffalonews.com/city/police-courts/police-blotter/article512698.ece

Sometimes even FOPA won't protect you...
http://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/Surprise-Arizona-truck-driver-arrested-for-1744065.php


All I'm sayin' is that a truck is more likely going to be treated as a vehicle, rather than your house. See Carroll V United States.

peace

Here is the hole in your opinion....

"Patrol found the gun, unloaded, on a shelf next to his sleeper bed and a magazine containing eight rounds of ammunition.

Davis said he didn’t have a pistol permit from any state. "


From my drivers seat, I can reach 4 of my 6 cabinets in my sleeper.

 

[NavyLCDR]

This happened when the firearm is in the sleeper portion of your "abode"...

http://www.buffalonews.com/city/police-courts/police-blotter/article512698.ece

Respectfully, no it didn't. It happened when the truck was being driven down the highway as a vehicle. What I stated was that when the truck was PARKED, and the sleeper was being occupied, the laws of the state for possession of a firearm in a person's abode would apply instead of the vehicle laws. The incident above happened while the truck was moving on the highway!

Sometimes even FOPA won't protect you...
http://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/Surprise-Arizona-truck-driver-arrested-for-1744065.php

From the ariticle you linked to:

A Taurus 9-mm handgun and ammunition were discovered in the passenger compartment of the truck

How does a 9mm handgun AND ammunition both IN THE PASSENGER COMPARTMENT of the truck even come close to meeting the requirements to be covered by FOPA: "if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle"?

All I'm sayin' is that a truck is more likely going to be treated as a vehicle, rather than your house. See Carroll V United States.

peace

Respectfully, Carroll v. United States nowhere mentions or applies to a vehicle with living quarters such as an RV, camper or sleeper when that vehicle is parked and the occupant is actually occupying the living quarters vice driving the vehicle down the road. When the truck, RV or camper is rolling down the highway it is a vehicle, certainly. The court cases that I have read have centered around whether or not a search was valid without a warrant, I have not been able to find any court cases that deal with an object that is legal in an abode, but not legal in a motor vehicle and which requirement applies when a person is occupying living quarters in a parked vehicle.

 

[Rob G]

I was reading through this thread again and thought of another interesting question related to this. If I recall FOPA protects you if you're traveling from somewhere you can legally possess the gun to somewhere else where you can legally possess it. My question is, how do they define your origin and destination for purposes of enforcement. Is it where your trip originates and ends? Or is it where that specific leg of a trip begins and ends? For example:

If I have a load that's going from TX to VT as a truck driver who's driving legally I won't make that in one day. So let's say I end up spending a DOT mandated break in NY. Then after my break I get pulled over by an officer who discovers I have a pistol stored away under the bunk. (locked, unloaded, etc.) Does FOPA protect me since I'm going from a place I can have a gun (TX) to another place I can have a gun (VT)? Or does it not cover me because my trip (for that day) started in NY, a place I can't have that gun. Or, to make things more complicated, what if I got stopped on my way in to NY on a leg of the trip where legally (based on DOT regulations) there was no way I was going to be able to exit NY before stopping for the night?

 

[AlaskaMan]

What I stated was that when the truck was PARKED, and the sleeper was being occupied, the laws of the state for possession of a firearm in a person's abode would apply instead of the vehicle laws.

Please provide the cite.

The court cases that I have read have centered around whether or not a search was valid without a warrant, I have not been able to find any court cases that deal with an object that is legal in an abode, but not legal in a motor vehicle and which requirement applies when a person is occupying living quarters in a parked vehicle.

While not entirely on point of legal in a motor vehicle versus legal in an abode, this does have merit...

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/740/878/233390/

"The decision that the use of a vehicle, not its configuration, controls the application of the automobile exception to the warrant requirement decides this case."

It's not a firearm, but it's similiar. Possession of marijuana (up to one ounce) is legal in your home up here. But you can't posess it outside your house (abode).

 

[NavyLCDR]

Please provide the cite.

As I explained, unfortunately I don't have a specific cite. I'll keep working on it.

While not entirely on point of legal in a motor vehicle versus legal in an abode, this does have merit...

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/740/878/233390/

"The decision that the use of a vehicle, not its configuration, controls the application of the automobile exception to the warrant requirement decides this case."

It's not a firearm, but it's similiar. Possession of marijuana (up to one ounce) is legal in your home up here. But you can't posess it outside your house (abode).

Where this case falls apart in relating to a truck driver sleeping in his/her sleeping compartment is this, from the case:

"the Carney decision will not reach this action where the motor homes were rented for transportation purposes and the occupants had not used the motor homes as a dwelling. Defendants rented motel rooms during their travels, parked the motor homes in commercial parking lots, had no personal living effects therein and were stopped while in transit on the highway."

and

"Since the motor homes were being used solely for transportation, we need not decide whether, if the vehicle was indeed being used as a place to live, the defendants could prevail on this argument. The cases relied upon by the defendant, furthermore, are not factually similar to the case at hand."

What's different about a truck sleeper? Clearly a truck driver sleeping in his sleeper compartment MUST HAVE an expectation of privacy and UNDISTURBED REST. Why? Because sleeping in the truck's sleeper compartment, under DOT rules, is considered rest to reset the driver's sleep vs. driving ratio requirement. If the driver had no expectation of privacy and no expectation of undisturbed rest, then why would the DOT consider sleeping in the sleeper compartment as "rest"? In addition, the presence of personal effects and the use of such things as satellite TV or DVD player, electric blanket, etc...would indicate the use of the sleeper as an abode. Clearly, under DOT rules, the sleeper compartment's lawful and normal use is to provide privacy and a restful environment for the driver.

Now, if the sleeper compartment had bales of marijuana in it... not so much.

 

[WALKERs210]

I crawled into the cab of my first truck back in1969. Wish someone had hit me with a stick when I reached for the door latch. More or less after 35 yrs of driving the only time I saw any issue with a driver carrying a fire arm was in Watertown, NY. crossing into Canada. Driver had a firearm and was detained and then turned around with instruction do not come back. Of all the companies I drove for it was a given that they frowned of carrying a gun of any type, but it was more of a wink wink,. Only place I ever had any problem and actually flipped the safety off my pistol was in Chattanooga Tn. I had a tendency to go right to the receivers gate and park there over night. This one time it was a very rough neighbor hood, after being hassled all night finally one kid beat on window and his actions looking up and down the street with hands in pocket made me pull my weapon. Thank goodness he backed off and left. I was told by more than one LEO's and especially Alabama State Trooper that it is better to be tried by 12 as to be carried by 6.

 

[Owen Sparks]

What does it really take to warrant a thorough search of the interior of a truck cab?

How about the driver himself? Do you ever get patted down for a traffic infraction?

 

[Rob G]

What does it really take to warrant a thorough search of the interior of a truck cab?

I only ever had it happen twice. First time I was entering a Naval base that stored nuclear weapons. Second time a VA state trooper swore some magic gizmo in his car told him I was using a radar detector. When I refused to give it to him, because I didn't actually have one, he searched the whole interior of my truck looking for it. I don't know VA law well enough to have any idea if that search was legal or not. I'm sure the first one was though.

How about the driver himself? Do you ever get patted down for a traffic infraction?

Never in my experience. I also never gave them an excuse to.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

It was against company policy and they said against DOT regs.

How many people have posted here that some Walmart or Dick's clerk or manager told them that a company policy was a federal ATF regulation?

The wink-and-nudge on guns in the truck is usually a fig leaf so the company won't be held responsible if a driver uses a gun in self defense. It protects the company (if was a company policy to allow truckers to be armed, their pockets are deeper than a trucker's pockets come lawsuit time). In other words, the policy was, if a driver used a gun in self defense, he was doing it on his own not on behalf of the company.

Now, talking to truck drivers in the late 1960s, early 1970s, it was common knowledge if hijacking was a threat, a driver would go armed, company policy or state laws be darned. One guy made a point that if he was assigned to haul untaxed cigarettes, he would walk through the lot to his assigned truck openly carrying an M1 carbine with two 30-round magazines taped together with black electrical tape. Let the word be passed to hijackers by any inside snitches. Passing through anti-gun jurisdictions "clean" was handled by hocking the guns at friendly pawnshops and redeeming them on the return trip. Conversely, if an unarmed trucker became aware of a hijacking threat, there were known trucker-friendly pawnshops were handguns could be bought with no questions.

 

[stickhauler]

The only times (3 times) I have ever had the sleeper compartment of my truck searched by law enforcement were twice at Canadian Customs, and once at US Customs. I've never been "patted down" by any law enforcement officer in any traffic stop, or encounter with Customs. Or for that matter, entering a Military facility.

I saw where one post said they could access a couple of drawers in a cabinet in their sleeper from the driver's seat. Maybe, but you'd have to go by feel to find anything in that drawer.

I've been told at Coca-Cola bottling plants that they have the right to search my truck upon exiting the facility, my stock answer has always been "you better have the cops and a warrant."

And no, the Virginia cop didn't have the right to search your truck for a radar detector unless he had a signed warrant from a judge, specifying exactly what he was searching your truck for. Getting a CDL doesn't necessarily cede your constitutional rights, cops just like to claim it does.

 

[fallout mike]

This may be a little off topic but yall will prolly find it amusing. I was delivering a load of lumber to a small mom and pop place to ghetto Bronx. I got there the evening before. There was a car parked 20 feet away from me. The next morning I look out the window and that car was on blocks with the rims and tires gone, the seats, all glass, dashboard, all lights, even the engine was gone. The hull was all that was left. It belonged to somebody that worked where I was delivering to. They had driven it to work the day before and the starter had went out. He brought a starter with him the day I was there to fix it. I heard nothing 20 feet away. I could have needed a gun that night.