Trucks and Guns, Legal or not.

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DaltonSpringfield

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I am a Trucker and also a Cowboy Action Shooter. I have always carried at least 1 firearm in the cab of my truck for defense, now I am packing around more than 7 firearms in my truck. The question I have is this. Is there any FEDERAL law prohibiting the carry or transport of firearms in a Commercial Vehicle? I am familiar with the state laws of all the states I travel and even a few of the local laws in regards to this. I have been told that there is a DOT rule on this, but, after reading the DOT, and FMCSA laws I can't find it anywhere. Just for Informational purposes, I will elaborate on my situation. I have a MO CCW permit, I carry my CAS guns in a locked guncabinet that is bolted into my truck. I carry my ammo in a locked ammo box and that rides in a locked sidebox on my truck, I can't possibly load the guns without exiting the truck and opening 2 sidebox doors (one to pull the locking rod from the guncase and the other to remove the ammo can). My carry gun is always on me in the states that I am allowed to carry in and *caugh* unloaded and locked in the guncabinet in the "red" states.

This is the story that caused my question.

I was stopped for a DOT inspection (random) in Texas. At the time I WAS Carrying my firearm. Durring the stop, the officer spotted a cowboy style gunbelt in my truck ( my stupid for leaving it in plain sight). Using that as "probable cause" he searched my truck and found my guncabinet.

Long story short, his supervisor came out and pronounced me "in compliance with the law" and was in the process of letting me go when he made the following comment. "Its a good thing you have a CCW permit, otherwise that armory your trucking around there would have been in violation of the DOT regs."

That made me wonder, what does a CCW permit have to do with DOT regs, and why would my "armory" have been in violation? It is possible that the Officer didn't know the law, but I am not willing to take that chance. I have been researching it ever since. So far I have found no federal law, DOT reg, or even FMCSA rule that would apply. I have on the other hand turned up multiple STATE laws regarding the transport of firearms.

If anyone knows for sure please let me know.

p.s. I don't want to start a flame war about leaving the guns at home, I have made the choice to carry them with me because 1. I shoot CAS all over the country, 2. I don't get home to shoot very often, maybe once every 3 months. By having them with me I can shoot at a CAS match usualy 2 weekends a month depending on where I am. I am aware of the state laws and do my best to comply.

Dalton
 
I have been thinking about

being a truck driver and been told the same thing, except the people telling me it's illegal can't seem to cite any laws or torts.

Welcome to THR btw and I for one commend you for carrying on the road.
We need more like ya!
 
The only laws that I know of concerning carrying in commercial vehicle have to do with whether you're an owner/operator or driving a company's truck. If the commercial vehicle does not belong to you, then you must have permission of the owner to carry or store firearms in the vehicle... just as you would if you worked in an office and stored arms there as you do not own the property where your firearms are stored. The truck is likewise considered a "place of business" since it's commercial. If you are an owner/operator, at least Arkansas will recognize that as your place of business and you are the owner with financial interests to protect. I have never actually read a DOT regulation banning firearms in commercial vehicles. Sure, I've heard people say it enough, but if you're firearms are stored and carried within CCW and state firearm transportation laws, then what can DOT do? DOT doesn't over-rule state law.

As always, YMMV, IANAL, etc.
 
Where you would probably get busted....

is carrying ammo in a vehicle involved with interstate commerce transportation. Ammo is hazardous and without proper documentation, well, you know.......chris3
 
No. Both gun and ammo are legal under FOPA. Comes up nearly every week on GunTalk. Further, I would say the gunbelt/holster was not probable cause, because it only indicated "cause" that you were doing something legal.
 
You should get a nonresident New Hampshire license.
Click to expand...

You should also get a non-resident Florida license. Inexpensive, and between the two (NH, FL, okay, and maybe NV, too), thirty-eight states give you the thumbs-up to carry concealed.
 
I'm not saying that carrying in a truck used in interstate commerce is right or wrong. I simply do not know. But my son is an OTR driver and he will not carry while driving in his commercial vehicle and swears that it is against Federal rules and regulations. I would like to either validate or refute his beliefs. He has been recruited as an observer in the Homeland Defense to crack down on terrorism. I ask him why, if he is enacted to do this, he cannot carry on his job. He doesn't know but maintains that the presence of a firearm in his truck is illegal. Does anyone here KNOW for sure if this is true or not?
 
I was under the impression that laws were passed to end armed confrontations with teamsters, who are subject to interstate commerce regulations. They were able to quickly congregate into armed bands of thugs, and there was no law upon which to base arrests and prosecutions.
 
There are no Federal laws prohibiting personal firearms carried by commercial drivers. There are no Federal laws requiring permission from your employer either(you are, of course, subject to whatever discipline may result from breaking any company policy.) Anyone claiming otherwise should provide citations, preferably with links.

That having been said, all of the local and state laws apply unless you are in compliance with FOPA, Firearms Owners’ Protection Act of 1986, rules. There are reports that some jurisdictions are running roughshod over gun owners despite their compliance with FOPA.

He has been recruited as an observer in the Homeland Defense to crack down on terrorism.
Click to expand...

From the reports among truckers I have heard, the DHS program smacks of a cross between police state block minders, Neighborhood Watch, and Saturday morning cartoon show invitations to kids to join a spy club and get a secret decoder ring. At best a dubious use of resources, both in the expense of promoting it and in the expense of checking spurious reports.
 
Quote: There are no firearms laws prohibiting the carrying of firearms by drivers in commercial vehicles."

This is what I'm looking for. What is your documentation for this? Likewise I would also prefer a link.
 
Huck Phinn was technically correct regarding Federal laws with one big caveat. It is all depending on the lawyer's point of view. The problem is that there is indeed a federal law requiring companies to provide a safe workplace under OSHA's general-duty clause. Depending on your lawyer's and the prosecutor's point of view regarding firearms depends on whether you having a gun is favorable or unfavorable to your defense.

OTOH, there are countless state laws (at least all of the states with CCW reciprocity with Arkansas) that specifically state that you must get permission from the private property owner to carry on their property. This includes both commercial and residential private property. The shady area here is that it is widely understood by both sides that permission is silently granted if there are no signs posted specifically prohibiting the carry of weapons. I have been told by a couple of lawyers that in order to "CYA" about carrying in the workplace, get explicit permission, in writing if possible, granting you permission to carry in the workplace from your superior-in-charge or business owner.
 
I'm an independent owner/operator...been trucking for 7 yrs now after retirement from the military. This topic has been addressed in several trade publications over the years...please don't ask me to find a reference.

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations, parts 382, 383, 387, 390-397, 499, and 40 don't mention firearms at all.

Almost every trucking company of any size has a policy of "No Weapons of Any Kind on Company Property". Some enforce the policy with termination if a weapon is discovered or the driver is cited by state authorities (the same as anybody else with a weapon in their vehicle/possession), some don't.

It is important to note that, according to SCOTUS, DOT Officers can search the cab/sleeper area of a commerical motor vehicle without a warrant OR probable cause because "A heavily regulated industry such as interstate truck transportation has to expect a lesser level of privacy than the general public". Truckers are subject to DOT Inspections anytime, anywhere. In my 7 yrs, I've had several random inspections but I've never had an officer ask to look inside my truck. I'm sure being a squared-away professional has a lot to do with that. I've never been "hassled", or otherwise treated unprofessionally by any trooper/DOT Officer out on the road.

When I had an AZ Resident CCW permit and non-res NH permit, I used to carry in my truck figuring I'd play the lottery that if I ever got caught it would be in a state where I was "legal", or the officer would cut me a huss. Now that I live in NE (No CCW, yet), and travel to IL-Annoy every week, I don't carry. That's NOT to say that I'm defenseless! :D
 
Huck Phinn said:
From the reports among truckers I have heard, the DHS program smacks of a cross between police state block minders, Neighborhood Watch, and Saturday morning cartoon show invitations to kids to join a spy club and get a secret decoder ring. At best a dubious use of resources, both in the expense of promoting it and in the expense of checking spurious reports.
Click to expand...
Nobody told me I could get a secret decoder ring!

Where can I sign up? I gotta get me a CDL posthaste.
 
Hawkmoon:

You might want to reconsider getting a CDL.

First, I paid $5,300 for a 4 week school in '99. The cheapo license mills are still at least $3,500 today.

Second, why would you want a first class priced ticket to second class citizen status???

Among truckers, we refer to OTR folks as "Dweller Nation". OTR folks live in their trucks on average 24 days a month...most companies want you out of the house at least 17 days at a time, then you get 3-4 days off. The Fair Labor Standards Act doesn't apply to truckers, and neither do OSHA regs.

Trucking: "It Sho' 'Nuff Ain't For The Faint Hearted!" (Tagline from a denizen of TruckNet.com)

I'm only a part-time dweller these days..I sleep in the truck 2 nights per week.
 
Speaking from personal experience here - I'm the guy at my company who has to train people on company policy and then enforce it.

There aren't any DOT policies that prohibit firearms in commercial vehicles, just like there aren't any OSHA regulations that prohibit firearms on jobsites or in offices. However, it's very common for the insurance carrier that covers your company to have strict requirements for this. Insurance coverage has became a massive expense, and most companies are wiling to do just about anything their carrier asks if it might effect the premium they pay. So as a result, companies end up adding rules like that to company policy. The part where this often gets really complicated is that a Federal agency (and some state agencies) can bust your company for failing to enforce their own policy - even if it's something that the Feds themselves don't regulate.

Another layer of complication comes up when you start talking about contracts. Let's say you own a company that runs 10 dump trucks. You don't have a problem with your employees keeping a little protection in the cab. (your insurance company does, but that's another story) So you sign a contract with another company to haul their material for them for a certain amount per load, etc. It's very common for there to be a clause in that contract that requires you to follow all of the safety regulations of the company you're contracting with - which may very well prohibit guns on company-owned vehicles.

So anyway, I don't think your major concern is the DOT. What you should be more concerned about is a lawsuit. If (God forbid) your truck is involved in an accident, and after the fact it's revealed that you had guns in the truck which were prohibited by your employer, by contract, or by your insurance carrier, then things can get really ugly. My advice? If you're going to keep those guns in the truck, then lock them in a very plain-looking metal box of some sort. Nothing that looks like a weapon case. Label the box on the outside with the most tedious description you can come up with. "Dishwasher parts" or something, you know? Then hope for the best.
 
Moondoggie --

I was joshin', Mate. I'm too old to be chasing after a CDL and living in the sleeper of an 18-wheeler.

But I do wish there was a coupon I could mail in to the DHS to get my decoder ring.
 
I'm in line with the pro-carry side here. There are no Federal laws concerning the carry of firearms in trucks. Ammo is ORM-D consumer items and are not required to be placarded if they are not cargo.
I drove trucks for 13 years, and am now (after a stint as an airplane mechanic) working in trucking safety. In my line of work the subject comes up a lot, and is argued a lot. I hear "prove it" quite often, and of course I explain to them about proving a negative, placing the burden of proof on them.

I used to carry, until I got a surprise trip into Canada. Fortunately I was able to stop off at the main terminal, where my dispatcher locked my 1911A1 in his desk drawer until I could return for it (we got along well, and I trusted him implicitly).

My truck was searched, in the typical Canadian "leave no mattress unturned" fashion, leaving me quite relieved that I'd taken care of the pistol.
With the thought that I wouldn't be so lucky next time, I left the pistol at home.
 
Moondoggie
why would you want a first class priced ticket to second class citizen status???
Click to expand...
A question anyone considering a trucking job should ask themself.


Ok, As far as company policy, insurance requirements and such. I am an Owner/Opperator and carry my own insurance policy. So that end is covered, my insurance pollicy doesn't say anything about firearms or weapons of any kind. The "Offical company policy" reads in part "no firearms, weapons, explosives, or dangerous instruments permited at any time on company equipment". My truck is not company equipment. One could argue that being leased to a carrier makes my truck company equipment, but since i carry my own permits, insurance and tags the company doesn't see it that way. I have a letter from the owner of the company (a fellow CAS Shooter and all-around gun nut) granting me his nod to carry/transport my firearms, provided I do it legaly. I think I have all the bases I can well covered.

Thanks for all the replies.

Perhaps I should post this topic on some random gun-grabber forum for fun. I doubt those folks could cite specific laws though. It is rather tough to prove a negative.

Dalton
 
BUMP

I'm giving this thread a bump because I would like to hear more on this subject. I was an owner/operator for 8 yrs and recently took a couple years off due to moving to ohio and handling some real estate deals. I may be returning to trucking on a smaller scale and would appreciate any info on this.
 
IMHO it's very simple - to anyone who is convinced that firearms in a commercial vehicle are illegal, just say "Show me the law/regulation." If anyone can do that, please post a reference on THR. OTOH, as previously stated, one usually cannot find a law that fails to prohibit something, thus making it legal.
 
castle doctrine? maybe

truckers live in their trucks. take the gun out of the truck and you may be breaking some state laws? could that be some of it?
 
Dalton: You may want to wander on over to www.missouricarry.com. The MO permit has been making some strong advances lately, but it seems like we are almost as recognized as we are going to get. The only states that don't recognize our permit are the states that either demand you sign over your privacy in regards to your mental health file or they just don't recognize any other permits at all.

So if you want more recognition, go with Utah.

But as far as specific DOT regs, I'm no truck driver, so I have no idea.
 
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