True meaning of the 2nd

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wow6599

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I have asked this question in several threads, and never an answer - so I'm going to start a thread and see if I can get one.

Why is it, during all of this "commotion", NOBODY will discuss the true meaning of the 2nd amendment?

The fact that the founding fathers knew weapons equal to, and probably greater than, the rulers of the land were necessary to keep liberty alive and well. I won't go in to a long diatribe, but I would like an open discussion about the lack of this "talking point".

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

- Thomas Jefferson
 
Somewhere around here there is a thread going about the true politically incorrect meaning of the 2nd amendment and I have seen it mentioned in numerous threads that protection from tyranny is the true reason for it. I am blurry eyed at this point and I'm not going to look it all up now but it has been discussed.

I for one interpret the requirement listed in the Militia Act of 1792 for men from 18 to 44 to have equal firearms as soldiers with adequate shot and powder to translate into today's AR-15.

But I'm a cranky sob and could be wrong.
 
76shuvlinoff, I am truly sorry if I overlooked or missed these comments here on THR......but what about the NRA on Friday or Sunday, the "media" any day, politicians, etc..

I wanted LaPierre to tell David Gregory, " we need 30 rd mags and AR's to protect ourselves from the government....that's what the 2nd amendment is about"
 
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wow, probably because almost everyone here already knows it and no discussion is really needed. it's not the specific issue in the news at the moment, so most people would rather talk about the buying panic or the impending restrictions
 
@ WOW

I am one that hears and truly understands you plight.

Too bad most do not want to touch a topic that the founding fathers saw as VERY important.

I see the AR / M-4 platform to be the "Modern Musket".

And if we were to have all that was needed to keep politicians honest = they might actually be that ,honest.
 
I've been discussing it.

But, people are afraid of things like that.

Look, in this society, we consume more than we produce. We're like the Romans, or Greeks, or Persians. We spend more than we make, as a country. Our trade deficit grows - it was ONLY 606 BILLION dollars of wealth that left this country so far in 2012. Meanwhile, our Government continues making our current debts payable to future generations with bond issuances - 16.3 trillion dollars in debt sold, last I checked.

Since 2002 (one decade ago), the US Global trade deficit totals to 7,353,161,000,000. That' how much wealth has left this country and gone to countries like China, Malaysia, Taiwan, and so on. ON TOP OF THAT we've accumulated another 16.3 TRILLION in debt sold. So the country is worth 7.3 trillion LESS by money flowing out of the country through trade, and 16.3 trillion LESS by spending more on social programs than it brings in. Meanwhile, 47% of Americans don't pay taxes, @20% are unemployed, and our industrial base is a shadow of what it used to be since so much of our manufacturing has been sent out of the country, causing a downward spiral. Less jobs. Less tax revenue. More people receiving government services.

The Persians, the Greeks, the Romans; *ALL* fell for the exact same reasons.

The Second Amendment is a problem, sure, but probably THE most minor problem our future generations are going to face. We're destroying ourselves as a country.

My guns aren't being kept for defense against my Government; although in a pinch they could be used as such.

My guns are being kept to give me a say in the construction of a NEW Government, once ours is bankrupt and failed. Might not be in my lifetime, so I have enough to spread around to my children, and potentially my grandchildren.

You need to think beyond the next year, or 10, to understand what this is all about, and what our guns are really needed for.
 
I've been discussing it.

But, people are afraid of things like that.

Look, in this society, we consume more than we produce. We're like the Romans, or Greeks, or Persians. We spend more than we make, as a country. Our trade deficit grows - it was ONLY 606 BILLION dollars of wealth that left this country so far in 2012. Meanwhile, our Government continues making our current debts payable to future generations with bond issuances - 16.3 trillion dollars in debt sold, last I checked.

Since 2002 (one decade ago), the US Global trade deficit totals to 7,353,161,000,000. That' how much wealth has left this country and gone to countries like China, Malaysia, Taiwan, and so on. ON TOP OF THAT we've accumulated another 16.3 TRILLION in debt sold. So the country is worth 7.3 trillion LESS by money flowing out of the country through trade, and 16.3 trillion LESS by spending more on social programs than it brings in. Meanwhile, 47% of Americans don't pay taxes, @20% are unemployed, and our industrial base is a shadow of what it used to be since so much of our manufacturing has been sent out of the country, causing a downward spiral. Less jobs. Less tax revenue. More people receiving government services.

The Persians, the Greeks, the Romans; *ALL* fell for the exact same reasons.

The Second Amendment is a problem, sure, but probably THE most minor problem our future generations are going to face. We're destroying ourselves as a country.

My guns aren't being kept for defense against my Government; although in a pinch they could be used as such.

My guns are being kept to give me a say in the construction of a NEW Government, once ours is bankrupt and failed. Might not be in my lifetime, so I have enough to spread around to my children, and potentially my grandchildren.

You need to think beyond the next year, or 10, to understand what this is all about, and what our guns are really needed for.
I hate to say this may be right.

To the OP: I have always interpreted the 2nd Amendment to mean that a citizen will have the ability to arm themselves to their liking so long as they are reasonably able to be trusted with such arms.

The 2A defends the others is my view.
 
I see the AR / M-4 platform to be the "Modern Musket"

I totally agree as well. I just don't know how to put that to an anti that can not comprehend they really don't control gov't agents.
 
I hate to say this may be right.

To the OP: I have always interpreted the 2nd Amendment to mean that a citizen will have the ability to arm themselves to their liking so long as they are reasonably able to be trusted with such arms.

The 2A defends the others is my view.

And here I was actually afraid I'd get called a crack-pot, or worse.

I'm a computer programmer and systems architect by trade, and an amateur historian and philosopher by hobby.

Assembling linear, rational logic to put our current world economics in to perspective with that of a living historical context paints a very dark picture of what lies ahead of us. We passed the tipping point a long time ago, the equation is unbalanced and we're on the road to self-destruction, as a civilization.

Will mankind survive? Undoubtedly. Will we eventually triumph and balance the socio-economic issues and factors in a manner which is consistent from the viewpoint of both resource allocation and individual liberty? Possibly.

Many systems have been tried since we first started scribbling symbols on stone tablets and seeking erudition and enlightenment as a species. So far, all systems we've tried have failed. Ours will likely fail in the end as well, and things are certainly headed that direction.

The question is just a matter of survival. Dark times in the future are inevitable; we'll learn lessons along the way which can contribute to the reconstruction of a new framework using the lessons learned in the past; just as we've done every time humans have built civilizations.

As promising a start our Constitution was, with all of it's checks and balances, our framework did not put in place a counterpoint to human greed, did not touch on morality, did not impose a set of ethical standards, and did not anticipate the level of technology humans would develop. We're infants with God powers, living in a technological world which grants almost every conceivable desire at the push of a button. Instant gratification is our undoing.

In short, our constitution lacked a counterpoint to the worst of human nature. It assumed - incorrectly - that there are (quite simply) "more good people than bad people." Since the framing of our constitution we've learned that this is not always the case - modern history is littered with examples of this. (For more insight study the political and economic structures leading in to World War 1 and World War 2).

We're undone, in the end, not by what the Constitution *did* address, but what it *failed* to address.

The First Amendment ensured we can all discuss this openly without prosecution.

The Second Amendment ensured we can survive ... and do it all over again, when the need arises. Our founding fathers were intelligent enough to know that once in place, a political system cannot be dislodged by anything short of force.
 
(Sorry for the lengthy post; but it was necessary to bring the subject full circle; and very difficult to do concisely)
 
I believe all of us know the original intent of the 2nd amendment. It's all the anti's and liberals that believe it is for hunting.....

Those are the ones we need to constantly remind on a daily basis.
 
In my readings, the "well regulated militia" clause meant that militiamen needed to have rifles of the same caliber, so troops could share their ammo if needed, or used ammo from their fallen brothers if need be.

Our founders never saw a need for a standing army, opting for the able bodied men of each state to assemble to defend their individual state from attack. They never questioned the right of free men to have and use firearms, for self defense, hunting to supplement their food, or whatever lawful reason. They saw that right as one endowed a free man by his creator, not granted by a government.
 
I read the federalist papers and the 2nd amendment and it leads me to believe, just as Scalia believes, is that we can arm ourselves with anything we can carry. That means I should be able to buy an RPG, Stinger, and Javelin, if I had the funds. I don't read any wording that states that "arms" is regulated to guns.
 
I agree, we all here at THR mostly know the true purpose of the 2nd Amendment, so it doesn't get mentioned quite as often is it maybe should.

Federalist Papers are a great thing to read, they really give insight into the frame of mind of the founding fathers. 29 and 46 in particular touch on the gun rights, I admittedly have only read a handful of the others.

The most ANNOYING thing in the world is when someone on a message forum brings up the true meaning of the 2nd, and immediately gets called a paranoid crackpot. Or else, someone says, "yeah a bunch of rednecks with rifles are going to go up against the US military!" and then complains about our weapons of death and murder. Hmmm, so which is it?
 
A well-regulated militia [i.e. a well-behaved/disciplined population of armed citizens] being necessary to the security of a free State [i.e. needed to protect our country and maintain its freedom] the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed [the last bit is clear as day to me].

If we find the modern world incompatible with our founding values, maybe the world needs amending and not our constitution. I think the Unabomber, for all his atrocities, hit the nail on the head when he said that the industrial system would make human freedom obsolete, and come up with techniques to change us to fit into it. Sometimes "progress" goes against human dignity, and there's a tremendous moral worth to being on the "wrong side of history," when history shows itself to be a force of oppression that crushes the human spirit in return for... refrigerators, global warming, and reality TV?

The Constitution was designed for an agrarian society of rugged, freedom-oriented individuals. We are not that. It doesn't mean that the Constitution is wrong, it means that we need to work to become the people it protects. Good luck trying to sell that to congress, whose only concern is "what can I get away with and will it make my district money"
 
I agree with pretty much everything in this thread. The writers of the Bill of Rights included each item to address something they suffered. King George quartered troops in home and made the citizens responsible for their upkeep. The King had his men search and seize property that was deemed treasonous or in violation of laws such as the Stamp Act. Colonists who published pamphlets and other writings that were critical of the Crown were jailed without trial and their printing materials destroyed.

Notice how each one of those event ties into something that the Frames specifically wanted the new government not to be able to? And then of course, there is the fact that the British Army attempted to seize the very weapons that the colonists would later use to fight the war.

When the Bill of Rights was being written, the very men who had just fought a war against the most powerful army in the world were the ones writing it. They knew what to put in. And the specifically choose to outline that the citizens right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. They knew full well that a big reason why they won the war at all was their ability to muster a quick group of armed volunteers willing to fight. Help from France and the money and arms to supply the Continental Army took a very long time to organize. Without citizens taking up arms and giving the Brits a good fight, we would have lost long before any real organized fighting could even be planned, much less take place. The Framers knew this ability should never be lost. And many of them were skeptical of the new government in the first place. "1000 tyrants 1 mile away instead of 1 tyrant 1000 miles away" as the saying goes. And there was fear that even one of the Framers might see himself as a possible king. The States new that consolidated power at the hands of a few despots was a dangerous thing. So the Second Amendment gave anyone with their mind on a crown a moment of pause. And a reset button should that ever happen.

And it's a shame we've lost that. I fear, as Trent said, it will be our ruin. The nation has done far to much to diminish itself from within. We've made the same mistakes empires throughout the ages made. And we very much seem like we're headed to the same end. Voting largess from the public treasury (and China's) may be our death blow.

And stickhauler is 100% correct. We've lost the truth about the meaning of the word "regulate". It truly just means "to make regular" as in "the same". "Regulating commerce" just means leveling the playing field between states. "Regulated militia" means exactly what stickhauler said,; standardized equipment, rank structure, military law and rule, etc. So that a citizen army formed at need would be able to operate. They said "we regulated" specifically so that citizens would be able to own the same weapons as the military. A Continental Army using flintlock muskets with organized rank does not work well with a rabble armed with bows. Making sure citizens had access to the same things the army had meant that if they needed to work together (just like the Continentals and the various militia did) they would be able to do so without chaos. Think about this, soldiers in organized armies at the time were even called "Regulars". Why? Because they wore the same uniforms, used the same gear, had the same training and fell under the same authority. They were made regular. Regulated.

It doesn't just mean "control". Another idea we've lost, to our peril.
 
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1st three words of the Declaration of Independence
"We, The People..."

So what part of,
"The Right of The People...Shall NOT be Infringed."
,does anyone feel compelled to debate?
As stated. read the Federalist Papers
 
gdcpony said:
I have always interpreted the 2nd Amendment to mean that a citizen will have the ability to arm themselves to their liking so long as they are reasonably able to be trusted with such arms.

So, you don't want to put things into the hands of those who cannot be reasonably trusted with those things? How many of the people who are flailing about claiming to govern this nation do you trust with what we've placed into their hands?

Therein lie the true meaning and purpose of the Second Amendment.
 
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