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TSA Unlawfully Detains and Questions Two Friends

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Nope, TallPine - you're not the only one! I'll bet you remember "sticking plasters", too! :D

Back to the topic; it really doesn't seem there's much we can do aside from avoiding air travel. There don't seem to be many alternatives if you're planning an overseas trip. Sad situation we're in.

R-Tex
 
Back to the topic; it really doesn't seem there's much we can do aside from avoiding air travel. There don't seem to be many alternatives if you're planning an overseas trip. Sad situation we're in.
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You make a good point, R-Tex12. But I think we've a lot to fear from the frog-in-the-kettle syndrome.

Tetleyb commented:
However, when I came back, through Norfolk VA, I ran into all kinds of problems. I was jammed up by the security and police. This, after me even showing I was a police officer. I didn't receive any special treatment at all. I wasn't handcuffed, however I was stripped down to my underwear. All my luggage, etc was gone through; with a fine tooth comb.

I didn't find any of it excessive.
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I didn't respond to this when it was originally posted, because I had such an overwhelming sensation of rage and fear when I read it that I could not have said anything appropriate to THR. Now that I've calmed down a bit, I do have a few things to say.

I've been reading Dave Grossman's excellent book On Killing. An extended quote which may shed some light on my unhappy reaction to tetleyb's post:
Dr. Stanley Milgram's famous studies at Yale University on obedience and aggression found that in a controlled laboratory environment more than 65 percent of his subjects could be readily manipulated into inflicting a (seemingly) lethal electrical charge on a total stranger. The subjects sincerely believed that they were causing great physical pain, but despite their victim's pitiful pleas for them to stop, 65 percent continued to obey orders, increase the voltage, and inflict the shocks until long after the screams stopped and there could be little doubt that their victim was dead. ....

Freud warned us to "never underestimate the power of the need to obey," and this research by Milgram (which has since been replicated many times in half a dozen different countries) validates Freud's intuitive understanding of human nature. Even when the trappings of authority are no more than a white lab coat and a clipboard, this is the kind of response that Milgram was able to elicit:

"I observed a mature and initially poised businessman enter the laboratory smiling and confident. Within 20 minutes he was reduced to a twitching, stuttering wreck, who was rapidly approaching a point of nervous collapse.... At one point he pushed his fist into his forehead and muttered: 'Oh God, let's stop it.' And yet he continued to respond to every word of the experimenter and obeyed to the end."

If this kind of obedience could be obtained with a lab coat and a clipboard by an authority figure who has been known for only a few minutes, how much more would the trappings of military authority and months of bonding accomplish?
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Grossman went on to discuss the ways in which a commanding officer's presence and authority can impel his troops to make kills which they would not otherwise make, but I veered off onto a (hardly original) tangent of my own and got thinking about the many ways in which Milgram's research explains the evil that was Hitler's Germany, that was Stalin's Russia, that was Pol Pot's Cambodia. I've always marvelled at the sheer compliance of the masses in such cases, and wondered even more at the ordinary grunts who actually committed most the atrocities. How could they?

Grossman's thesis is that most ordinary human beings have an inborn and very powerful resistance to killing other humans, and that it takes certain extraordinary circumstances before this resistance is broken down enough to enable one ordinary person to kill another at close quarters. You would think that with such a thesis, the book would be encouraging for the future -- but it's actually very bleak indeed, especially in light of Milgram's research.

In that frame of mind I read tetleyb's offering. "I didn't find any of it excessive." He saw nothing wrong with an ordinary citizen going about his lawful occasions being almost strip-searched in public by some petty bureaucratic minions. The TSA minions aren't just scabby little minions, after all. They represent the rule of law and their uniforms reinforce that.

So now tell me, people: what happens now? Now that we've gutted large portions of our Bill of Rights, now that everyone is so worried about terrorists that they're willing to put up with behavior from the authorities that would have been unthinkable a generation ago? What's the next step? If the government chooses to misuse and abuse its suddenly expanded powers, what does Milgram's research say the common man will do in response?

Will the ordinary grunt obey brutal and unlawful orders? Will ordinary citizens comply and cooperate with men in uniform committing foul deeds? I see no reason to believe they will not.

Worse than that, I just looked over my bookshelves earlier today. There are a lot of really good books on the shelves, going back a lot of years. One of the recurring themes in literature (at least in the literature I read) is the beauty and power of taking responsibility for one's own actions and one's own choices. From Voltaire to Gandhi, from MLK to Andrew Jackson to e.e. cummings, from Emerson to Thoreau and from Swift to Solzhenitzen, from Kepler to Abraham Lincoln to Spurgeon to Mark Twain to Bertrand Russell and Orson Scott Card, it seems to me that nearly every author who ever set pen to paper and nearly ever orator who ever mounted the podium has given laudatory words about the value and virtue of nonconformity.

And yet, it suddenly occurred to me that the very prevalence of these glowing words is pretty darn depressing. You don't, after all, often encounter people lauding the commonplace. Nor is a soldier decorated for doing merely what is expected of him. Such laurels are for those who do the extraordinary ... which leads me to the depressing (but again, hardly original) conclusion that if-and-when, it'll be the majority against a tiny minority; and of that minority, a predictably large number will lose their zeal when faced with the disapprobation of the crowd.

So here we are again, back at tetleyb's post. The only sure way to defeat such reasoning is to be in the majority, and use the power of the group against it. Well, our members can do that here. Just barely. But do you think this web site is a microcosm of American society, an accurate reflection of the forces at work in our culture? Hardly. We're heavily biased toward freedom, toward individual liberty and its attendant responsibility. And even here, such opinions aren't overwhelmingly despised as they ought to be.

There doesn't seem to be much reason to hope that America is going to do anything other than what it has been doing, and that is to spiral steadily toward a police state. Nor does there seem to be anything much that I as an ordinary citizen can do about it, other than to watch its demise and mourn for what it was -- as R-Tex12 and others have pointed out.

Maybe, though, if I and enough people like me became not merely sad and resigned, but angry enough to do something about it, before it is too late to reverse what appears irreversible ...?

Anger may be able to accomplish what resignation will not.

pax

Be angry, but not without cause... -- the Bible
 
I didn't find any of it excessive. I admit, I didn't go through what those people did (assuming their stories are true).
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You're an active, sworn police officer? And they still felt the need to conduct a strip-search? And you don't think that's excessive? I'm not sure which one is more disturbing.
 
I have to say, I've rarely seen the ideals of freedom and self-reliance expressed as well as pax does on a fairly regular basis. Have you ever thought about trying to get published pax? If you're gonna do all this writing you may as well make some extra shootin money off of it.:)
 
VA Alerts; more info

VCDL puts out the VA Alert emails weekly. This was linked there. As much as it pains me to do this... The person (victim) was breaking the law.:mad:

Go to http://leg1.state.va.us ; Table of Contents ; Title 5, chapter 10. You are looking for the MWAA enabling legislation. Unfortunately, the Virginia General Assembly, in it's infinite stupidity, created this monolith to regulate Reagan & Dulles Airports, granted blanket authority to create rules with the penalty of law up to a class 1 misdemeanor, and enforce them on all their property - Airport, access roads, rights of way, including parts of route 28, 606 and surrounding easements. MWAA stands for Metro Washington Airports authority, and as you see above was created by compact with MD & DC, by an act of the VA General Assembly. MWAA regulation 8.4 & 8.5 states that you may not have a dangerous article... even shipped firearms must be disassembled "as far as they can be". Virginia is the court of jurisdiction.

1st, MWAA's enabling legislation is overly broad, and violates the Virginia Constitution. 2nd, the VA AG has stated clearly that unless the GA expressly grants authority to regulate firearms, none exists - see
VA AG website decision Black '02. 3rd, VA has complete preemption but for a couple grandfathered ordinances that are pre-'87, and MWAA ignored this, and previous acts of the General Assembly in creating these regulations. Obviously, these Alpha Hotels are in need of some oversight.

What I find most significant is that the Commonwealth dropped the charges... They must have known the case would be decided against, rendering the 'regulation' in question... AND - they returned the firearms - WHOA....

I don't believe that a lawsuit would be sustainable here. All of the government folks would be insulated and protected by sovereign immunity.
 
MWAA regulation 8.4 & 8.5 states that you may not have a dangerous article... even shipped firearms must be disassembled "as far as they can be". Virginia is the court of jurisdiction.
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So according to federal, state, and local law, you can transport guns in your checked bags. But you can't have them inside the airport because they are a dangerous article? Don't you love bureaucracy? Seems like a test case is called for.
 
I have to fly sometimes.

I don't like it, but sometimes work has my fly off every now and again. When I travel for leisure I just drive -- it's much more fun, and I'm my own boss then.

Anyway, after going through the security gates about a year ago I decided I didn't like some guy waving a wand at me if anything set off the metal detector. I remove everything reasonable from my body before I pass through that stupid thing. On my last trip I actually had a TSA agent tell me as I'm removing my shoes "You don't have to do that anymore" -- I still did. Belt, shoes, wallet, keys, pen, pocket change, hat, coat, cellphone, cellphone clip, all of it on the counter. Let them watch it pass through the scanner.

If, for some reason, I still set off that freaking metal detector my plan is simple: Walk back through, remove shirt, pants, down to my boxers and socks, toss clothing onto belt and walk back through. I'm not very modest. Make a scene of the situation before you let them make a scene out of you I guess. If "junior" flops out of the boxers and offends somebody, sorry -- that's the price you pay for "security."

I still don't have it down entirely. Learned just last week that you can't pass through the metal detector with a magazine (the printed kind on paper) in your hand.
 
Pax, that was an extremely well-written and thought-out post. Thanks!

pax wrote:

Maybe, though, if I and enough people like me became not merely sad and resigned, but angry enough to do something about it, before it is too late to reverse what appears irreversible ...?
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I'd really love to see some ideas (besides the "Blow 'em all away & let God sort 'em out" variety) presented & discussed. I'll be the first to admit that I have ZERO contributions afa possible ideas are concerned, but I wholeheartedly agree that merely resigning ourselves to the situation is most likely a recipe for certain disaster.

Aside from joining & contributing to the NRA, GOA, etc. and working for the election of those we perceive to be pro-gun rights, does anyone have any suggestions? If your state doesn't yet have right-to-carry laws, working for their passage as John Ross does might be a step in the right direction. We already have CCW laws here, so I'm drawing a blank on anything I can do that would have any overall significance.

R-Tex
 
Aside from joining & contributing to the NRA, GOA, etc. and working for the election of those we perceive to be pro-gun rights, does anyone have any suggestions
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Belonging to national organizations is important, but local grassroots political activisim is also vital to promote the RKBA.

For example, as was mentioned by another poster, Virginia has an excellent grassroots orginization, the Virginia Citizens Defense league, that has been very effective in lobbying the State legislature for things like shall-issue, abolishing excessive requests for personal information during gun sales, and many other areas including the right to carry in airports around the State.

Maryland now has it's counterpart, the Maryland Citizen's Defense League modeled after the one in Virginia. It'll be interesting to see what progress they can make in Maryland with the leftist extremists who comprise much of it's government.
 
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Does anyone wonder why we have to declare a firearm in the first place?

What security purpose does it serve? Why must ammo be stored separately?

Rick
 
Russ: uhhhhh what? We're holding our government accountable for it's infringement of our rights (or "whining" as you call it) precisely because we don't want to become a Euro-trash style socialist hellhole. But I suppose screaming and calling names works if you can't support your position any other way. :rolleyes:
 
Assuming the story is true ... no reason not to ...

I'm not Russ, but I don't see anybody in this story holding anybody accountable. It appears that they are not going to press the detainment, questioning and confiscation of weapons on the part of airport security, TSA and the FBI. The "government" is getting away with it because folks like John won't file a lawsuit and force these guys to justify their actions.

In spite of all the harrassment that the flying public has endured in the post 9/11 world of TSA, I for one don't feel any safer. We're all being given a big placebo and asked to swallow. The FBI, CIA MI-5 and (lately) Moammar Gadhafi are doing their best to make the world a safer place. But TSA is not helping things with the strong arm tactics frequently cited in these airport horror stories.

They need to get a grip on their regulations and quit pissing off the public for following the law. John conformed with the law as the Commonwealth of Virginia determined in deciding to not prosecute. TSA should have realized this at the ticket counter, but the agents had their minds made up. Since no one ever sues, they feel empowered to do whatever they can get away with.

They need to be held accountable in court, not on the internet.
 
Balog,

The people involved should seek redress if they feel they have been wronged. What is happening here is whining about something that you can't change short of elections or in court if are the agreived party. This is like complaining because a minimum wage employee at at Wal Mart doesn't know the difference between a 9mm and a 45. This is really not a wide spread thing. They don't pay these people enough to care and until they do you can expect this outcome every now and then. You do get what you pay for in this world. Usually less. However, far be it from me to dissuade you or anyone else from moaning about it.Write your Congress person. Please share their response if you get one.
 
It appears that they are not going to press the detainment, questioning and confiscation of weapons on the part of airport security, TSA and the FBI. The "government" is getting away with it because folks like John won't file a lawsuit and force these guys to justify their actions.
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Riverdog,

You are mistaken as to facts.
The people involved should seek redress if they feel they have been wronged. What is happening here is whining about something that you can't change short of elections or in court if are the agreived party. This is like complaining because a minimum wage employee at at Wal Mart doesn't know the difference between a 9mm and a 45. This is really not a wide spread thing.
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Russ,

Even if the people involved were not seeking civil or criminal redress, this sort of thing is valuable. I want to hear every single stinkin' story of abuse from my employees. If such abuses are not publicized, ill informed people might be able to claim, "This is not a wide spread thing" even when such abuses have become quite common. No one will ever act to correct widespread abuse within the system (or correct a system that is in itself abusive) if the problem isn't publicized.

So even if, for one reason or another, the people involved weren't pursuing justice through the courts, such stories are valuable and should be heeded.

Incidentally, not everyone can afford to buy justice these days. When I hear such tales, I'm always saddened at the number of people who have no legal redress because they don't have the financial resources to pursue them. That's one more reason why such complaints should never be stifled, and should be passed along by those of us who have votes and voices.

R-Tex,

Been thinking about what you asked. Obviously, voting for freedom would help. So would writing letters to your local papers.

When you hear tales like John and Kit's, if you have money, you could toss a few bucks into the legal pot.

If you're as dedicated as a Jim March, you could become informed about legal and political issues and hold the politicos' feet to the fire making them follow their own rules.

Of course you could write letters to your congresspeople, and visit them in person at least once a session -- with an informed view to present.

When hearings come open at the state capital, you could show up and talk (funny story there -- last time I did that, at one point I was sitting in the gallery and eyeing an almost asleep representative propped up on one elbow with eyes half shut. Person mounted the stand and began to talk, mentioning where he was from. Sleepy rep sat up straight, eyes wide open, started taking notes -- and bounded out of the room to shake hands the second the person from his district was done talking. They do listen, or at least try to give that impression!)

Most of all, when you hear crud like this, don't just go back to sleep and forget it. Keep it in mind when election season rolls around. Who was in office? How'd these rules get into effect? If you've told your elected people (by your silence) that you don't much care if they allow crud like this to happen on their watch, and then tell them again (by voting for them again even though crud like this happened and they did nothing about it or even encouraged it) -- well, it wouldn't be surprising if crud like this kept happening.

pax

The most important political office is that of private citizen. --- Louis Brandeis
 
riverdog,

You assumed that the appearance of the tale on the internet meant the participants were not seeking redress through the courts.

pax
 
A couple of things to add.

For Marylanders who are interested in grass-root pro-RKBA organization there is Tripwire. Tripwire is a periodic newsletter about Maryland firearms issues mostly.

Last I heard, Tripwire has about 25,000 subscribers and is free. Donations appreciated. Tripwire also engages in legal actions against various governances.

Tripwire has its own website called www.direct-action.org.

Also want to point out that under 18 United States Code, lying too or trying to deceive any Federal agent conducting an official investigation is the same as perjury, which is a felony. That is why it is best not to speak to any Federal agent, or any LEO, other than to identify yourself if you think you are the target of some kind of investigation. Maybe not even then.

And if they ask you why you are not cooperating, tell them it is under advice of counsel. At that point, IIRC, the questioning is suppose to stop. If they want to arrest you they will anyway. If no arrest, then at that point I would ask them if I a free to leave.

I am not a lawyer, so take these remarks for what they are. Free.
 
Pax,.
So I did. How did I reach that conclusion -- facts not in evidence? So by saying I was mistaken, are you saying some pertinent facts are missing? After that read I thought I had the whole story. Apparently there's more. Good luck to John if he does file.
 
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