I recently purchased a 19-4 that an old timer had tuned up. The trigger face is polished and jeweled and the hammer is jeweled also. He also had the gunsmith lighten both the DA and SA pulls considerably. Both of them are extremely smooth except there is one issue: sometimes the trigger doesn't return all the way forward after firing. I'm willing to make the pull heavier or closer to stock to obtain reliability. Is this a problem that can be solved by a stiffer mainspring or are there other factors at work here?
Tuned S&W Problem
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CSA 357
Member
thatis not the main spring, its the trigger return spring, you will need a new one sounds like some one cut off too much, you could take the spring out and stretch it , but i would just order a new one , *csa*
CSA 357- Thanks for the help! I'm relatively new to DA revolvers so I didn't know there was a separate spring for that. Do they come in only one standard poundage? I'll probably order it direct from Wolff.
*Edit - I looked on the Wolff website and the spring standard is 18 lbs. That's what I'll be ordering.
*Edit - I looked on the Wolff website and the spring standard is 18 lbs. That's what I'll be ordering.
Jim Watson
Member
I think I'd get the $9 assortment of rebound springs. Yours is now too weak or short but there is no need to put in a stronger one than necessary. If the action work was properly done, the friction should be way down and you could get reliable operation with a lighter than standard spring.
Or get a new mainspring which will come with three different rebound springs. The old timer might have replaced or cut the mainspring, too.
Or get a new mainspring which will come with three different rebound springs. The old timer might have replaced or cut the mainspring, too.
If it is just a range blaster the Wilson reduced power spring kit is actually pretty nice, no way I would carry one with reduced power springs.
If you just get a rebound slide spring look for something along the lines of 14 pounds. DA should stay 8 pounds or a little less if the action work was done well. It is also plenty strong for even very fast DA shooting. Brownells has the rebound slide springs and the rebound slide tool, without the tool changing the spring can be really frustrating.
If you just get a rebound slide spring look for something along the lines of 14 pounds. DA should stay 8 pounds or a little less if the action work was done well. It is also plenty strong for even very fast DA shooting. Brownells has the rebound slide springs and the rebound slide tool, without the tool changing the spring can be really frustrating.
One thing factory-trained S&W armorers are taught is....
The former owner's pistolsmith (?) may have:
1. Shortened or replaced the rebound slide spring (AKA "trigger spring").
2. Slimmed or replaced the mainspring with a weaker one.
3. Shortened the mainspring tension screw.
Any combination of the above could be causing your problem.
The first step should be to get a qualified person to disassemble the lockwork to find out exactly wnat was done. Then depending on what is learned you can order whatever springs or other parts that are needed to correct the problem.
The rebound slide does two things. It pushes the trigger forward, and it rebounds (moves the hammer back so that the firing pin is inside the breechface after firing) the hammer. The spring has to be strong enough to do both functions. This is sometimes not understood by those that take it upon themselves to do "trigger work".
The rebound spring is balanced against the mainspring, and changing only one can effect how well the other works.
So define the problem and then seek a solution.
- DON'T MESS WITH THE SPRINGS!!!
The former owner's pistolsmith (?) may have:
1. Shortened or replaced the rebound slide spring (AKA "trigger spring").
2. Slimmed or replaced the mainspring with a weaker one.
3. Shortened the mainspring tension screw.
Any combination of the above could be causing your problem.
The first step should be to get a qualified person to disassemble the lockwork to find out exactly wnat was done. Then depending on what is learned you can order whatever springs or other parts that are needed to correct the problem.
The rebound slide does two things. It pushes the trigger forward, and it rebounds (moves the hammer back so that the firing pin is inside the breechface after firing) the hammer. The spring has to be strong enough to do both functions. This is sometimes not understood by those that take it upon themselves to do "trigger work".
The rebound spring is balanced against the mainspring, and changing only one can effect how well the other works.
So define the problem and then seek a solution.
GSPKurt
Member
That's good advice.
Confederate
Member
I've messed with the springs many times with no problem. The mainspring affects primarily double action. The rebound spring gives better control over single action, but often "snaps" forward with too much vigor. Often, though, if you snip too many coils or put in a weak spring, it doesn't push the trigger back adequately.
Some folks change springs to third market, but some smiths like to use the Smith springs, tapering the mainspring by removing metal of both sides and clipping the rebound spring by about a coil and a half. The rebound spring housing and the frame can be polished to where it's so slick that almost any spring will push it back. Sometimes a thin layer of corrosion or a lack of lubrication will cause it to clutch, so those are two additonal considerations. My opinion is that the Smith springs are too taut overall and could use a little work, but you should always look at your primers to see that the indent is good and solid.
Clipping one or two clips is about right for rebound springs.
Some folks change springs to third market, but some smiths like to use the Smith springs, tapering the mainspring by removing metal of both sides and clipping the rebound spring by about a coil and a half. The rebound spring housing and the frame can be polished to where it's so slick that almost any spring will push it back. Sometimes a thin layer of corrosion or a lack of lubrication will cause it to clutch, so those are two additonal considerations. My opinion is that the Smith springs are too taut overall and could use a little work, but you should always look at your primers to see that the indent is good and solid.
Clipping one or two clips is about right for rebound springs.
Fuff, dammit man the glass is HALF FULL!!!!! Of course things must be tested to be sure, but going into a test thinking there is a good chance all is not well is the same as signing for an F before trying!!!
I have the same opinion as you on spring changes, but I also have a beater M19 here that gets a lot of mileage that is over 25K rounds without a hitch with one of them newfangledcheaterkitlowweightspringkits in it. This one has a Wilson reduced power kit in it, Wilson mainspring and a 14 pound rebound slide spring. I don't think the kit came with anything else, and I am dumb but nowhere near dumb enough to try changing anything other than the main and rebound springs. Tried a kit in a J, it was a disaster just as you and I have told people it would be, tried to fix it but lipstick on a pig just leaves you with a pig....... No easy answer for the J other than stock springs and even then they are a little soft on the primers...... The N? Well, that one works most of the time, but to be honest it only has a couple thousand rounds through it, it hasn't been one way or the other for long enough to count anything, and sometimes it feels like the gun is lagging behind. I have NO idea what that is yet, but when I break it I should know pretty closely what the problem is. Thank goodness they made more than one of each right?
EDIT TO ADD, in all of the shooting I have done it has been with my own handloads, mostly Winchester primers but a couple thousand CCI and Federal find their way into the rotation depending on what is on sale.......
I have the same opinion as you on spring changes, but I also have a beater M19 here that gets a lot of mileage that is over 25K rounds without a hitch with one of them newfangledcheaterkitlowweightspringkits in it. This one has a Wilson reduced power kit in it, Wilson mainspring and a 14 pound rebound slide spring. I don't think the kit came with anything else, and I am dumb but nowhere near dumb enough to try changing anything other than the main and rebound springs. Tried a kit in a J, it was a disaster just as you and I have told people it would be, tried to fix it but lipstick on a pig just leaves you with a pig....... No easy answer for the J other than stock springs and even then they are a little soft on the primers...... The N? Well, that one works most of the time, but to be honest it only has a couple thousand rounds through it, it hasn't been one way or the other for long enough to count anything, and sometimes it feels like the gun is lagging behind. I have NO idea what that is yet, but when I break it I should know pretty closely what the problem is. Thank goodness they made more than one of each right?
EDIT TO ADD, in all of the shooting I have done it has been with my own handloads, mostly Winchester primers but a couple thousand CCI and Federal find their way into the rotation depending on what is on sale.......
There are a lot more variables involved here then simply changing or weakening springs. Things like firing pin protrusion, headspace and cylinder end-shake. In this particular instance we don’t know what all modifications were made to the gun, only that it didn’t work until it was cleaned and lubricated, and then it seemed to.
Everything alluded to in the first post suggest that some if not all of the principal springs were either exchanged or tampered with, and I have no idea if the mainspring strain screw was shortened or not.
My original advise was that the gun be disassembled and inspected by a qualified and experienced gunsmith or armorer to determine exactly what had been done, and what the best solution to the problem might be – new springs or whatever. Instead, the current owner simply “knocked off” the sideplate, and cleaned and lubricated the interior. At this point the action apparently worked flawlessly.
But for how long? As the owner said, “only time will tell.”
Now if this revolver is used for other purposes except a weapon, the liability of a misfire might be minimal. But if it is sometimes used for self-defense a misfire, or worse, a hangfire could have critical consequences.
So I would rather leave the owner with some lingering doubts rather then later learn that the gun failed him when his life was at stake. While this is improbable it is not impossible.
The fact that your “beater 19” has gone 25 thousand rounds with reduced springs doesn’t necessarily mean that his will. It just means that variables that might be present but undetected in his revolver apparently aren’t in yours.
Admittedly, Smith & Wesson’s factory springs are on the heavy side. So are those of other mainstream handgun makers. This is to insure that under something less then the best of circumstances they will go bang during an emergency.
It is also true that some pistolsmiths with impeccable credentials can safely lighten the action of a S&W revolver. But they know just how far to go, and what too do, and not what not too do. They also know that there is a lot more to a good job then just switching some springs or engine-turning the sides of the hammer and trigger.
So I will, without hesitation, stand with what I said, and the advice I gave. If others chose to ignore it that’s their business. One thing that’s never lacking on the Internet is opinions.
I knew you would before I posted
I have weapons and range beater/toys. I do enjoy tinkering and learning, and the range beater/toys are the appropriate items to tinker and play with. I think the desire to tinker and the process of tinkering gets to be a part of the hobby for a lot of guys, more than just a sideline. Sure, a lot of guns are wrecked by this but we also learn some too.
Good day!!
I have weapons and range beater/toys. I do enjoy tinkering and learning, and the range beater/toys are the appropriate items to tinker and play with. I think the desire to tinker and the process of tinkering gets to be a part of the hobby for a lot of guys, more than just a sideline. Sure, a lot of guns are wrecked by this but we also learn some too.
Good day!!
XavierBreath
Member
I'll mention one thing and then shut up. Anytime I see a post-war S&W revolver with a jeweled trigger and hammer, I consider the trigger job to be suspect.
Most machinists understand that jeweling is not for looks. It is to allow lubrication to remain on the surface of a fitted part. Post-war S&W triggers and hammers have small studs mounted in them to provide a small space between the frame and the moving part. Lubrication stays on the parts very well as a result. Thus, jeweling is unnecessary and would only be done for fashion. That means the person jeweling either did not understand the parts he was jeweling, or the purpose of jeweling, or both. Thus, can I trust his decisions elsewhere in the gun? No.
If you plan to use this weapon for defense, a replacement rebound spring will likely get you back where you want to be. Check the mainspring tension screw to see if it had any length ground off. If so, replace it too. I'd lay odds the person "tuning up" this gun didn't touch the mainspring. He probably monkeyed with the tension screw instead. If in doubt, replace the mainspring too.
Most machinists understand that jeweling is not for looks. It is to allow lubrication to remain on the surface of a fitted part. Post-war S&W triggers and hammers have small studs mounted in them to provide a small space between the frame and the moving part. Lubrication stays on the parts very well as a result. Thus, jeweling is unnecessary and would only be done for fashion. That means the person jeweling either did not understand the parts he was jeweling, or the purpose of jeweling, or both. Thus, can I trust his decisions elsewhere in the gun? No.
If you plan to use this weapon for defense, a replacement rebound spring will likely get you back where you want to be. Check the mainspring tension screw to see if it had any length ground off. If so, replace it too. I'd lay odds the person "tuning up" this gun didn't touch the mainspring. He probably monkeyed with the tension screw instead. If in doubt, replace the mainspring too.
X-Breath:
Not exactly, in the frame there is a raised area, or "boss" at the bottom of the hammer and trigger pivots (called "studs"). Then there is a matching boss in the sideplate. These bosses are supposed to keep the hammer and trigger centered in the frame so that the sides don't rub. Unfortunately in more modern times the fitting wasn't perfect, and one side or the other (or sometimes both sides) of these parts might rub. There are small pins in the trigger and hammer, but these are supposed to be flush with the surface - but again, sometimes they aren't.
I believe that hammer and trigger bosses were always in hand ejector revolvers since the beginning, and hammer bosses in top-breaks go back well into the 19th century.
At the turn of the 20th century S&W would drill small holes in the hammer and trigger, and after these parts were case hardened small pins were driven into the holes - called "chafing bushings" - and these were surface ground to just short of flush as an additional precaution against the hammer and trigger rubbing the frame and maring the case-color finish. Guns made in those times were built like a fine watch.
Jeweling the sides of hammers and triggers serves no useful purpose regardless of the age of the gun, and is strictly cosmetic. Some like it. I don't.
Not exactly, in the frame there is a raised area, or "boss" at the bottom of the hammer and trigger pivots (called "studs"). Then there is a matching boss in the sideplate. These bosses are supposed to keep the hammer and trigger centered in the frame so that the sides don't rub. Unfortunately in more modern times the fitting wasn't perfect, and one side or the other (or sometimes both sides) of these parts might rub. There are small pins in the trigger and hammer, but these are supposed to be flush with the surface - but again, sometimes they aren't.
I believe that hammer and trigger bosses were always in hand ejector revolvers since the beginning, and hammer bosses in top-breaks go back well into the 19th century.
At the turn of the 20th century S&W would drill small holes in the hammer and trigger, and after these parts were case hardened small pins were driven into the holes - called "chafing bushings" - and these were surface ground to just short of flush as an additional precaution against the hammer and trigger rubbing the frame and maring the case-color finish. Guns made in those times were built like a fine watch.
Jeweling the sides of hammers and triggers serves no useful purpose regardless of the age of the gun, and is strictly cosmetic. Some like it. I don't.
HSMITH:
YOU HAVE AN EXCELLENT PONT THERE ...
Hereafter I will encourage everyone to pry off the sideplate (with or without removing the screws) and have at the lockwork. Don't fool with a stone or file if a hand grinder is handy. Get them springs out along with your side cutters. For the best action possible trim at least 3 coils at a time. Don't forget to thin the mainspring by at least 50 percent. You don't NEED all of that metal. Be sure to cut one leg off of the cylinder stop spring too - most folks miss that one. When you're done your trigger finger will thank you...
Good enough?
YOU HAVE AN EXCELLENT PONT THERE ...
Hereafter I will encourage everyone to pry off the sideplate (with or without removing the screws) and have at the lockwork. Don't fool with a stone or file if a hand grinder is handy. Get them springs out along with your side cutters. For the best action possible trim at least 3 coils at a time. Don't forget to thin the mainspring by at least 50 percent. You don't NEED all of that metal. Be sure to cut one leg off of the cylinder stop spring too - most folks miss that one. When you're done your trigger finger will thank you...
Good enough?
XavierBreath
Member
These "chafing bushings" are the "small studs" I was speaking of. However, they did not appear in K frames until after WWII.
Here is a Victory Model's lockwork. No chafing bushings.
Here's a pre-war M&P's lockwork. No chafing bushings.
Here's a Model of 1899 lockwork. No chafing bushings.
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