Uberti conversion question

[Mighty Mitch]

Hi guys,

I was wondering if someone could tell me what kind of factory loads are suitable for a uberti 38 special conversion? like the man with no name one. Am an Aussie and not many people seem to know nothing about that sort of stuff here

cheers

 

[Roverguy]

Are we talking about a black powder cap and ball revolver that you’ve installed a conversion cylinder in, or one of the Richards-Mason type revolvers that Uberti makes ?

For the former, the conversion cylinder makers encourage so-called “cowboy loads” and specify velocities, 750 fps for 38 Spl as I recall, which is a little silly. As to the latter, they are suitable for use with standard SAAMI (and presumably its Australian equivalent) spec loads.

 

[Mighty Mitch]

The 1851 open top made to take 38

 

[Roverguy]

The 1851 open top made to take 38

Standard pressure 38 spl. I’d stick to cast lead bullets, but that’s me being cautious not a manufacturer recommendation. Those are really elegant revolvers; enjoy!

 

[CraigC]

The Man With No Name is not actually a conversion. It's an 1871-1872 Open Top frame with a Navy style barrel. Either way, they're perfectly suitable for any manner of factory loads, probably even +P for the .38's.

The conversion cylinders are typically rated for 1000fps, not just cowboy loads. Kirst even has a .45ACP conversion for the 1860 now.

 

[Mighty Mitch]

Cheers mate! Glad you Americans know all this stuff, how much does the man with no name 1851 go for in the us? It’s about 1100$ cheapest in Australia

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Keep loads light with the open tops. The design was a workaround that was never originally intended for smokeless pressures.

If you reload and 'cowboy' propellents like IMR Trail Boss or Vihtavouri N32C Tin Star are available, give those a try.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Keep loads light with the open tops. The design was a workaround that was never originally intended for smokeless pressures.

A "workaround" ? For what?

and who told the revolvers they could only shoot bp ?
( I must be doing something wrong !! Lol)

Mike

 

[James K2020]

You can shoot any standard velocity .38 Special with the Open Tops or MWNN but I wouldn't try +P in any Open Top, it will get loose.

 

[1KPerDay]

Cheers mate! Glad you Americans know all this stuff, how much does the man with no name 1851 go for in the us? It’s about 1100$ cheapest in Australia

Cheapest I'm seeing today is $574 USD. Most are around $700.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/968301216

 

[45 Dragoon]

You can shoot any standard velocity .38 Special with the Open Tops or MWNN but I wouldn't try +P in any Open Top, it will get loose.

I forgot I'm in the "Revolver" forum. You folks need to visit the "Black Powder" forum and get a little more "updated" . . . you're stuck in the 19th century with your thinkin.

Mike

 

[Roverguy]

A "workaround" ? For what?

and who told the revolvers they could only shoot bp ?
( I must be doing something wrong !! Lol)

Mike

A workaround for firing cartridges from a revolver that was originally cap and ball and both designed at a time when black powder was the only game in town.

Your opinion that black powder cap and ball revolvers fitted with conversion cylinders can shoot any smokeless load known to man is well documented. And frequently disagreed with.

In this case, not one person has suggested that either cap and ball revolvers with conversion cylinders or open top replicas such as that owned by the OP can only be fired with BP loads. Not. One. Person.

 

[James K2020]

I forgot I'm in the "Revolver" forum. You folks need to visit the "Black Powder" forum and get a little more "updated" . . . you're stuck in the 19th century with your thinkin.

Mike

This is right off the Cimarron website and is what I was trying to convey:

We recommend that you shoot only standard over the counter ammunition that meet SAMMI specifications, http://www.saami.org/.

Shooting any ammo like +P or reloads will void the warranty on the gun.

Cimarron Firearms does not have any plans to make any guns that shoot +P ammunition.

Do not shoot magnum rounds with the 1878 Coach Gun.

Do not shoot wadcutters in lever action rifles.

 

[45 Dragoon]

A workaround for firing cartridges from a revolver that was originally cap and ball and both designed at a time when black powder was the only game in town.

Your opinion that black powder cap and ball revolvers fitted with conversion cylinders can shoot any smokeless load known to man is well documented. And frequently disagreed with.

In this case, not one person has suggested that either cap and ball revolvers with conversion cylinders or open top replicas such as that owned by the OP can only be fired with BP loads. Not. One. Person.

I guess it was the suggestion that they were "never intended for smokeless pressures" part ( that would translate to bp). How would you know they wouldn't work? It's also the mention of "keep loads light with an open-top " smacks of they'll fall apart !! Lol
"Firearms" made are "Firearms" and they can handle whatever standard loads are on the shelf ( but are proofed even higher), whatever the platform is.

As far as disagreeing with my shooting smokeless in my conversions, that's perfectly fine but that's exactly what they are made and sold for!!! And, I don't say any "smokeless load known to man" . . . never said that Not. One. Time.

Mike

 

[Pat Riot]

@Mighty Mitch
Read what Cimarron has in their manual for the Uberti open top conversions regarding ammo.
https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Manuals-Forms/PDFs/ConversionPDF.pdf

 

[Mighty Mitch]

Cheers m

@Mighty Mitch
Read what Cimarron has in their manual for the Uberti open top conversions regarding ammo.
https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Manuals-Forms/PDFs/ConversionPDF.pdf

Cheers mate! Here in Australia takes long time to get a handgun license so thought I’d look while I’m in the process of getting one

 

[Mighty Mitch]

Cheapest I'm seeing today is $574 USD. Most are around $700.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/968301216

Lucky haha, the 1100$ is the cheapest possible here in Australia, as that’s coming from the state all the gun are imported to then distributed down to my state for like 1400$

 

[Mighty Mitch]

Wonder what’s the heaviest smokeless load possible to be under +P, not supposed to hunt with handguns in Australia but

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

A "workaround" ? For what?

and who told the revolvers they could only shoot bp ?
( I must be doing something wrong !! Lol)

Mike

I still stand by both the original comments you refer to here Mike.

The Colt Open Top and Richards-Mason conversions were temporary workarounds, intended to use the maximum number of Colt percussion revolver parts to field a metallic cartridge revolver between the expiration of the Rollin White patent in 1870 and the introduction of the solid frame Model P in 1873. Uberti makes a modern reproduction of this original workaround. Since the original Colt Open Top was rimfire revolver, Uberti did some workarounds of their own.

https://gunmagwarehouse.com/blog/1871-72-colt-open-top/

If you object to the word 'workaround', feel free to substitute one you think is more apt. I still think it fits though.

You also paraphrased me incorrectly. To repeat, the Open Top's design was never originally intended for smokeless pressures. It was introduced in 1871, while the first service arm intended from the get-go to use smokeless powder was the Fusil Modèle 1886 'Lebel' -- please note the two dates. The Open Top was originally made for the rimfire .44 Henry cartridge. In short, it was not a product of the smokeless era but a adaptation from the black powder percussion revolver era.

I agree that modern reproductions like Uberti's have been constructed to handle smokeless powders and designated as such, and that their engineers are competent. FWIW, I also find the Open Top to be a rather handsome revolver. As some of my older postings indicate, I regularly shoot black powder era revolvers with smokeless handloads, specifically using my recommended powder Trail Boss. I even use Trail Boss with the conversion cylinder for my Pietta 1858 Remington.

https://utreon.com/v/MZf2QqzdRAG

https://utreon.com/v/2WcINNElRdW

There is still an elephant in the room: The Open Top was updated and manufactured by Uberti, but it is not their original design. As with other percussion-era Colts, the cylinder and barrel of their Open Top are still held to the frame only by the threads at the rear of the base pin. Regardless of materials used, this simply isn't the strongest arrangement. I therefore still recommend trying 'light' pressure handloads using Trail Boss and Tin Star for longevity reasons. To me this isn't a question of what works or doesn't but what is most sensible. I believed this is was what the OP's question was about.

If those propellants would not be your choice Mike, again feel free to suggest something else. And if you still believe my reasoning is laughable, why not make specific recommendations for the OP about what you would shoot in an Uberti Open Top?


BTW, if the OP is limited to factory ammo only, try seeing what ammo the Aussie SASSers like to use in their competition .38s.

https://ssaansw.org.au/branches-port/cowboy-action-shooting-society-of-australia-inc/

 

[45 Dragoon]

Well Dave, the Richards/Richards Mason's conversions were made with leftovers but the OT was new. New bbl, new cylinder and I believe a new frame or new machining of '60 rough frames. The conversions may well have been a "workaround" ( to use up stock) but the OT was designed from the get go to be THE cartridge revolver to carry on the Colt line. Not being picky but " workaround" to me is a temporary fix while a proper or permanent solution is found ( which quite literally could be everything since a newer better one is on the way).
Moving on, there is apparently some degree of misunderstanding. When I use "Open Top", it pertains to the "platform", not just the '71/'72 Open Top. I combine all Open-top revolvers into the same family. All of my open-top revolvers have been converted with Kirst gated conversions and as such, that's what I used and continue to use as testing "equipment" for upgrades and "platform" strength testing.

The strength testing has become the hot button for me lately since the addition of the 45acp cylinder for the open-top platform. I don't expect everyone to do the same but, the results I get and have reported so far should be "encouraging" at least to all those who like shooting open-top Colt style revolvers. Almost all forums I visit seem to have folks asking " what is the max load for my Navy, my Army, Walker . . . with bp?!!
NONE of these "max loads" are going to be anywhere near the pressures I'm shooting in my '60 . . . and that's not bragging, it's meant as a "your open-top revolver is much stronger than you even realize, go have fun !!
The 21K psi loads I shoot regularly have had zero negative effects to the Uberti Army ( as reported). That also means your 14K psi (top of tier 1 loads) 45C loads will be fine as well.

I believe some folks have heard so many times how "frail" the open-top platform is, any "good news" ( from me ) is met with "silly comments" rather than "wow, they're that good?!!!"
I also believe the revolver these conversions are installed in should be in excellent mechanical condition.

As far as the arbors being screwed into the frame, I agree, and that's why the testing . . . That being said, I always check the arbor to see if it's loose. If it is, it's removed, upset, and torqued back in place. In the case of my "test beds" they are removed and reinstalled anyway ( it's the norm).
The mild steel ( probably hot rolled) arbors are good for a minimum yield of 36,000 psi tensile strength with a max of 58,000 - 80,000 psi. With everything fit "as designed" ( and with min. tolerances) it's a rather robust package.

As far as powders, I've used TG for many many years but want to get some CFE. That stuff has some great looking numbers ( lower pressures/ higher velocities).

Mike

 

[35 Whelen]

Use ONLY COMMERCIALLY loaded cartridges that have been loaded in accordance with SAAMI-C.I.P. standards.

...which would include +P loads since they are in fact loaded to SAAMI standards. Further, the C.I.P. (European) Pressure Standard for the .38 Special cartridge is just shy of 22K psi. So obviously these revolvers, which are produced and proofed under C.I.P. rules, are designed to handle .38 Special pressures far above those loaded commercially in the U.S.

This is right off the Cimarron website and is what I was trying to convey:

We recommend that you shoot only standard over the counter ammunition that meet SAMMI specifications, http://www.saami.org/.

Shooting any ammo like +P or reloads will void the warranty on the gun.

Cimarron Firearms does not have any plans to make any guns that shoot +P ammunition.

This is humorous as the bold statements contradict the first sentence.

35W

 

[Mighty Mitch]

View attachment 1129905

Use ONLY COMMERCIALLY loaded cartridges that have been loaded in accordance with SAAMI-C.I.P. standards.

...which would include +P loads since they are in fact loaded to SAAMI standards. Further, the C.I.P. (European) Pressure Standard for the .38 Special cartridge is just shy of 22K psi. So obviously these revolvers, which are produced and proofed under C.I.P. rules, are designed to handle .38 Special pressures far above those loaded commercially in the U.S.




This is humorous as the bold statements contradict the first sentence.

35W

Cheers, might be able to hunt with one then

 

[Zulch]

MightyMitch. Congratulations on your new open top. Take a picture for us and share if you don’t mind? I bought this RM Type II chambered in .38 spl. awhile back. Also this Type II chambered in .44 spl.

 

[James K2020]

A long but informative writing about .38 special v .38 special +P. Basically, it says almost all modern .38 special revolvers are designed to handle +P but the door is open on older (pre- 90s) revolvers and depends on the model. Nothing about western repro guns but you can draw your own conclusions. I'll stick with the manufacturer's recommendations and not wear out my OTs prematurely.

https://revolverguy.com/all-about-the-38-special-p-and-38-special-p/

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

As far as powders, I've used TG for many many years but want to get some CFE. That stuff has some great looking numbers ( lower pressures/ higher velocities).

Thanks for thoughtful response and taking the time to fill in the blanks Mike -- I had a feeling there was more to your response. I think we're roughly on the same page.