Unarmed defense against a handgun

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Jeff White

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This is not the General Gun Discussions forum. This is the Strategies and Tactics Forum. The rules are different here. If you can't resist posting a comment about the victim needing a gun, don't read any further. There won't be any more thread hijacks here. Off topic posts will not only be deleted, but in addition the offender will get 7 days off to think about it. Things are going to tighten up here in S&T. It starts with this thread.

Non permissive environments are a fact of life. No matter how much we may complain about unfair that is or how it violates your second amendment rights, they exist and it's important that we discuss how to be safe in them. The incident we are about to discuss happened in Illinois. In Illinois the entire state is a non permissive environment.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...3D90E1A3DB91F9D3862574B100650EA4?OpenDocument
Woman fights off would-be car thief at St. Clair Square
By Angie Leventis
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
08/26/2008

FAIRVIEW HEIGHTS - Police say a young mom fended off an armed attacker who approached her and her young children in the St. Clair Square Mall parking lot Friday night.

The 29-year-old female victim parked her car in the Sears parking lot at the mall, and was about to get her two small children out when the suspects pulled up alongside her in a gray Pontiac Grand Prix. A woman got out of the Grand Prix, pointed a handgun at the mom and demanded her car keys. The victim resisted and a scuffle ensued.


Then the attacker got back in her car - which was driven by a man - and they fled.

The victim suffered minor injuries but did not need medical treatment; the children were in the car the entire time and were not assaulted.

Police say the suspect's vehicle might have stolen earlier on Friday from St. Charles.

Police are still investigating the case.
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There is no doubt the victim was lucky. But apparently she charged into the near ambush and was rewarded for her courage.

What other tactics, techniques and procedures can be used to win the day in a similar situation?

Jeff
 
Not nearly enough detail here to elicit a cogent response. There are many varied defenses against a firearm in CQB but each situation requires different tactics.
 
There are many varied defenses against a firearm in CQB but each situation requires different tactics.
Click to expand...

The purpose of this thread is to talk about them. We're not limited to this incident. Unarmed response to a handgun is the discussion topic.

Jeff
 
Wow, happy everything turned out ok. It is a good thing the female thief did not open up on her. With kids in the car the ante goes up.

One thing I can think of would be to hit the panic button on the alarm if it had one. Would possibly throw keys and hope for the best. The criminals could have reacted numerous ways. Just glad it worked for her.
 
from my Krav maga training a couple years ago, I took a couple things when doing weapon disarms. One is keep the dangerous end away from your body and always try to be at 90 degrees from the weapon. This is your first priority should you be forced into a bad situation. I was also told that if I were to try and disarm someone, I should expect to be stabbed/cut/shot and if I got away without that happening I should go buy a lotto ticket because I was the luckiest man on earth right then. Expect to be injured but don't let that hurt your resolve. The moment you start to ease up without control of your attacker's weapon is the moment you could find yourself dead.

Second is simply to cause as much pain and damage as quickly as you can. Stomp toes, kick the groin, fingers in the eyes, rapid knees and punches and elbows, bend limbs the wrong way. Anything to cause serious injury to your attacker is fine. You would also be surprised how many weapons are around even though many people don't think of them that way. An empty beer bottle or wine bottle can do a number on someones face and inflict even more grievous wounds once it breaks. A full beer or soda can can be used as a great club of sorts.
Chunks of concrete, wood from a broken pallet, garbage cans, a garden hose, a flower pot. Everyday things can be used to quickly gain some advantage.

So right now we have two very important things covered. Your resolve to fight and win and the ability and means to achieve your goal.
You do not stop fighting until your attacker is down and you have control of their weapon. At this point some might disagree with me but I'd say get outta there. Run away as quickly as you can. There is no point in being around when/if the bad guy wakes up.

Now some might disagree but if you get through the encounter and didn't cause any serious bodily injury, I wouldn't say anything about it. Get in your car and go home. No point in risking an assault charge because some overzealous DA decides you should have just given up whatever the baddie wanted.
If you did cause serious injury, I would still run somewhere safe but then I'd call the police and get my story in first.

The point is you don't show any mercy until you are the only one standing. Your attacker won't do it for you.
 
There's a great and very simple Krav Maga technique to disarm someone from a handgun. You can find it on youtube easy, it's been showed on several TV shows. The idea is basically to get out of the line of fire, grab the gun and twist it towards the thumb, using the barrel as a lever. Any disarm that I've seen that looks practical has the same idea, get out of the line of fire and then attack.

In a situation like the one described, I personally think the best approach is immediate aggressive attack. Even if you should be aware of your surroundings sometimes stuff just happens and catch you offguard. With the kids there, running is not an option. Surrender to the will of the attacker, and beg for your life and the life of your children is of course an option, but if someone is willing to pull a gun on you, I wouldn't bet on the goodness of their heart.

I once was told that "a bad situation can only get worse, so you might as well deal with it before it gets worse". So I think the best tactic is to attack right away, in any way possible.
If you have something in your hand, throw it against the attacker as a distraction. It might give you another 1/10 of a second to reach them, then just rush them and hit them anywhere you can. I dont think people, including a lot of criminals, expect to be attacked when they have a gun, so you stand a good chance to reach them before they can react and pull the trigger. And even if they do shoot, they might miss, end even if they dont miss, they might just wound you.
Once you reach them, you go all out, hit anywhere you can and as bad as you can. Run into them so you both fall, then introduce their head to the street. Grab the gun and use it against them, whatever it takes, but dont stop until you're sure they cant fight anymore.

If possible, I'd want to avoid the situation, and if it only was the car, I'd throw the keys in the direction of the attacker and run the other way. But with kids in the car, you're out of options, and the best way in my mind, bad as it is, is to take initiative and attack. It's the best choice of many bad ones.

Might as well ad a disclaimer: I've never been in a situation like that, and I have no idea what I would actually do in a situation like it. The above is what I think would be the best thing to do, but you dont know what you'll do until it happens to you.
 
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Watching Yojimbo, a Samurai movie made in the early 60's, the hero, armed only with a sword and a short knife, faces off a man armed with a pistol. The hero ran rapidly sideways and towards the gunman, a move now being taught by Gabe Suarez and others 50 years later. The gunman did get a shot off, but was not able to adjust his aim rapidly enough.

This was, of course, a work of fiction. Take it for what it's worth. It was, nevertheless, something of a shock to see something I know as a modern technique being portrayed so long ago. Whether this is an existing martial technique that was known to the moviemakers, or it just looked good on the screen, I do not know.
 
If there is no COVER (You can't SEE though concealment; you can't SHOOT through cover), you're better off charging a close-in assailant. They taught me in the Army that NOBODY can beat a bullet in a foot race, but you've got a chance to beat somebody's reactions, especially if they don't expect resistance.

Once you get to your opponent, knowing how firearms work is a big plus. Knowing that a properly working M1911 won't fire out of battery is useful information. Knowing that it's hard to fire a double action revolver when cylinder movement is impeded is as well.

Knowing things like jiu jitsu, aikido, or chin na is very useful once you've got your assailant and his firearm in hand. Joint locking and breaking techniques can make it difficult or impossible for your attacker to effectively employ his firearm, even if he manages to break contact. Don't hesitate to go after his eyes, with your fingers or with improvised weapons. My life always trumps the eyesight of somebody trying to kill me. I'm willing to say that with sincerity in front of a criminal or civil jury too.
 
Watching Yojimbo, a Samurai movie made in the early 60's, the hero, armed only with a sword and a short knife, faces off a man armed with a pistol. The hero ran rapidly sideways and towards the gunman, a move now being taught by Gabe Suarez and others 50 years later. The gunman did get a shot off, but was not able to adjust his aim rapidly enough.
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In Shorinji Kempo, this is called the "chidori ashi". It's an essential technique to both evade the opponent's attack and to place yourself in position to strike his undefended side and rear. It is confusing to the untrained opponent and therefore difficult to anticipate or defend against.
 
Seems like the attacker made the critical mistake of forgetting that the primary advantage of firearms is the ability to wound/kill from a distance. Once you close that distance you give up that advantage. Your intended victim closes it further and fights back, well there you go.

As others have said, move fast, close gap, grab things and twist, keep the pointy or loud end of the weapon away from you, hit hard, repeat as necessary.
 
Sounds like a take no crap mom...good for her...we need more like her.

Most idiots who are committed to pulling this kind of stuff are jacked up somehow,
And will likely be exhibiting some level of paranoia,
or distraction and will likely be looking around.

If they have their finger off the trigger or look awkward holding the gun, they probably have no idea of how to use it.
That is the perfect opportunity to inflict significant damage.
The means of inflicting such damage are multiple and should be employed without mercy or reservation.

One can only hope that the situation never presents itself, but if it does, hopefully it plays out as I have stated.

I have never been forced to defend myself with my kids around, but I am certain that the level of "resolve" exponentially increases over what I have been forced into in the past (and I've held my own a few times in the past)

I am what one may call Hyper-Protective of my kids as it is...god forbid that there is a significant threat such as this.
Son of a gun better hope he is a good shot...and gets really lucky.

I am glad to hear that the mother was not injured and the kids are safe.

+1 for the good guys!
 
Close the distance, and take control of the hand/arm holding the gun. If she's that close to a car, I'd try smashing the hand into the window. If it breaks, great, cut her hand up, maybe she drops the gun. If it doesn't break, it hurts like hell, and maybe she drops the gun. Strike for the face/neck/solar plexus/groin(Yep, hurts women too.) until you get the gun. Then they play by your rules. Just remember not to duplicate their mistake, and back off at least 6 feet.
 
If there is no COVER (You can't SEE though concealment; you can't SHOOT through cover), you're better off charging a close-in assailant. They taught me in the Army that NOBODY can beat a bullet in a foot race, but you've got a chance to beat somebody's reactions, especially if they don't expect resistance.
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Heh, I was just doing Tueller drills (21 foot distance) in a class last night. I was the first to charge someone with a make believe knife against a blue practice gun in the other person's holster. When the signal to charge occurred I went from this mild mannered, soft spoken person into a crazed, screaming and yelling banshee. My wide-eyed "victim" didn't get a shot off before I stabbed him at least two times.

My "victim" wasn't expecting my attack even though he was waiting for me to charge him. Rather than adopting the usual starting block stance with eyes riveted on the signal to charge I used my peripheral vision to notice the signal and was acting very relaxed. He never had a chance. Even though he was "ready" he wasn't "ready."

The lesson I take out of this is that if an attacker isn't expecting someone to fight back then fighting back in a completely unfair, unconventional and unexpected way is likely to make an impact upon an attacker and make an escape from or incapacitation of the attacker more likely.

I've seen those videos of the 98 lb store clerk fighting off armed attackers with brooms or axes and I think the reason they might have been successful is the surprise factor.

Would I attack someone with a handgun? Wow, I don' t know, that seems like a real bad place to be but the only reason I got my guns in the first place is because I was determined to never be someone's victim...
 
The very easiest way to take a gun is when it's on your body. Ideally, on your chest. If it's on me, it's mine. Have someone hold a marker (don't try this with a gun) pointed at your chest. Turn so it is laid flat against your body. Use your arm to trap their wrist against your chest.

Turn back and wait for the wrist to break, with their own gun pointed at them, in their own hand :)
 
having kids ads to the complexity in that you not only wanna protect yourself you need to prevent a discharge in the direction of the kids. mom afraid for her kids? i wonder what kinda scratch marks are on the bad woman.
there is a difficulty many folks have with getting "uncivilized" they wait too long to get to biting and gouging.its a line some folks can't seem to cross
 
I consider the best defense to be subterfuge followed by an all out, gusty attack. There are many ways to disarm an opponent- not all of them work all of the time, so the "right way" will vary with every encounter. The most basic premise is to get the attacker off guard and then fight back with every ounce of your strength while trying to control the noisy end of the weapon. If it isn't pointed at you, it can't hit you. Plus, a semi auto turns into a lousy club the moment after it is fired with a hand around the slide. Revolvers can't go bang if the cylinder can't rotate. Hitting a fast moving target is not that easy- even for a skilled marksmen. Keep moving and keep attacking. The other thing that you have in your favor is the fact that most armed attackers rely on their weapon- even when their weapon stops working.

One of my old instructors told me "as the start of the fight, you have the first move- as long as you are willing to take it. The secret is to always make them "react" to your "act" after that first move.

If anyone wants to practice disarming techniques, buy an airsoft gun and some safety glasses. Find somebody to practice with and PRACTICE. If you don't succeed, it will hurt enough to remember. Oh yeah, make sure that your partner doesn't just shoot at the first movement.:rolleyes: I set up a deal " I am either going to control the gun, or hand you my wallet- if you shoot me before you know which, I get to shoot you too".
 
saw a dimwit pull a pistol and stick it in a bouncers belly. bouncer was quick hit the fool upside the head very hard. i thought at first that the fool with gun haq pack of tic tacs spill from his pocket. till i saw the roots and realized they were teeth.it was a bold move the guy with gun was on pcp so that tilted the odds in bouncers favor
 
Does unarmed mean absolutely nothing to use? If not, a pocketknife or one of those Ka-Bar TDI knives might be a good option. Having something that one could use to inflict damage in the midst of a struggle might make the bad guy run away. Like someone mentioned earlier, a gunman most likely doesn't predict any form of resistance.

This is the TDI knife that I had in mind. Since it has a fixed blade, it can be deployed and used in the time that it takes to swipe your arm past the attacker.

DBA-814.png
 
What other tactics, techniques and procedures can be used to win the day in a similar situation?
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What struck me about the fact pattern was the circumstances under which the victim met the predator's selection criteria. She was in a parked car, presumably wrangling (or at least somehow occupied with) her young children. A lesson I would draw from this is the importance of active deselection. Farnam and Southnarc both provide good material in this area.

Dealing with the initial layers of confrontation seems to be where we should all focus (despite how much fun it is to make brass). I guess those of us who live in NPEs need to focus a little harder because if it gets beyond that, our options are fewer and far less attractive.

Regarding techniques, I'm not sure anything of real value can be conveyed in an internet forum, but, hapily, we residents of Illinois have other sources :).

MTG ran a two-day retention/disarm class in Aurora earlier this year. A guy I shoot with took it and gave it high marks. Farnam does his advanced handgun class in IL, IN, and MI. It includes a retention/disarm block. Randy Cain did his CQT class in Fenton, MI in June, which was even more focused on that material. Both Cain and Farnam show a small number of robust techniques. Bill Jeans will be doing his ADP class in IN in September. I've not done that one (yet), but I get the impression that it might provide some material relevant to this problem.

Good topic.
 
I've been looking into this a lot lately and in addition to some of the other things mentioned here, another thing is to not raise your hands if they tell you to. You don't want them to know where your hands are and what they're doing. If you are asked to raise your hands or start to do it out of instinct, the best time to attack is while your raising them because they are already expecting hand movement.
 
Let's keep things limited to what you would have on you in a non permissive environment.
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Sounds good to me...*insert daily rant about how even CCWers are forbidden to carry fixed-blade knives*

I've posted before that I've given it some thought, working without a gun in a pharmacy.

Main problems for me would be knowing "when" to initiate the attack. Most armed pharmacy robberies that I know of end without violence when guy with gun gets drugs and/or cash. I'd happily give up either, but would attack if it looked like he was going to eliminate witnesses....

That kinda messes up the "IMMEDIATE, savage reaction" method.

Also...I don't always run a register. THAT kinda messes up the notion of "get in close FAST and control the gun."
 
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