Underestimating the 12ga

[nhcruffler]

For the longest time you could only use shotguns in the bottom half of Southern Michigan. A lot of guys were dropping deer , big deer, at over 100 yards with federal slugs in smooth bore shotguns. One such deer hunter I worked with at the prison had the unpleasant experience of working the perimeter on a foggy evening when a con decided to jump the fence. He called him by name and told him to stop. Com simply said to ahead and shoot. Well, one of the 00 buck pellets hit an artery and that was all she wrote. I have shoulder problems but a 12 gauge pump will always be close at hand.

 

[George P]

How does a modified choke handle 00 and slugs? Good, OK, not well? Cylinder or imp cylinder would be better I know, but you shoot what you have. I've never had a reason to try before...now I'm thinking.....

Others have said it is possible to "shoot out" the choke, but I think that's improbable.

The only way to "shoot out a choke" is to have a poorly fitting choke tube that goes downrange with your payload

 

[MEHavey]

Shotguns are over-rated in the "don't have to aim it all that much" Biden school of ignorance.
At anything approaching common home-room dimensions, you have little -- if any -- pattern spread
It's a slug gun for all intents.
A miss is a mile.

On the other hand, that modern 75 caliber Brown Bess makes a godawful mess if you are on-target.

 

[sarduy]

See, now if they played Halo 1&2 they would know the power of a shotgun....and generally know how to use it.

They are too young for Halo 1

 

[lemaymiami]

That "don't have to aim" BS is just one of many many mis-conceptions folks have about shotguns... The basic riot guns (both mossberg and remington) - 18" barrel, bead sighted, Improved cylinder... dispersed 00buck at one inch per meter from the barrel when we checked them - all those years ago. That means only a seven inch pattern at 21 feet ( I switch between metric and US measurements too often)... What I used to tell my crew was that you'd better be aiming if you want to be hitting --- and of course always aim just a bit low when it's all on the line and you're scared spit-less... since many will shoot a bit high when under severe stress.

 

[guyfromohio]

I can, with 100% certainty, claim that I have NEVER felt the need to give unsolicited advice at the range.

 

[labnoti]

View attachment 940606

A 12 gauge blast, even one of them, would be one hell of an introduction before you draw your handgun.

 

[Charlie Martinez]

Anyone that thinks a shotgun isn't "powerful enough" has never shouldered one & let loose a blast of 00 buckshot. My first go with buckshot was with a 2-3/4" shell and it was an awakening experience. I have never shot a 3" Magnum load but I don't need to do it to know that my shoulder will feel it for a day or two.

It was fortunate that this kid was in a place where the point could be made immediately & I'm sure he walked away rather humiliated and hopefully, wiser.

 

[Rexster]

My wife worked for 21 years as a Forensic Death Scene Investigator for the Harris County M.E., in Texas. That is the county that contains most of Houston. (Houston’s sprawl extends into several counties.) She is a believer in the effectiveness of the shotgun for home-/self-defense. She likes the Remington 870.

I worked 33+ years of night shift patrol for Houston PD. I am a believer in the effectiveness of the shotgun for home-/self-defense, at night, and in places that are built-up, and/or heavily vegetated. I am familiar with several pump guns, and keep my old warhorse 870P around, but now favor Benelli auto-loaders, as my pumping arm has not aged well, and I love the Benelli Comfort-Tech stocks.

I have nothing against rifles for home-/self-defense. I know my way around the AR15, and we have several, but I did not get my first AR15 until 2002, at age 40, when Houston PD started a patrol rifle program. (Actually, it was a re-start, as HPD patrol officers had been able to carry personal rifles, in the past, until some time in the early Eighties, before I was hired.) I need a moment or two get my mind into the groove of the non-intuitive-for-me AR15/M4, so, a shotgun is my better grab-and-fight defensive long gun, with many more years of familiarization.

 

[Rexster]

To elaborate just a bit, on my previous post, above:

My wife worked actual death scenes, so she saw things such as blood spatter evidence, which shows whether, how fast, and how far, the decedent moved after being shot. Few folks move very far, if at all, after being hit with a full charge of shotgun pellets.

I favor shotguns for most defensive situations. The parameters I described, in the previous post, above, describe my usual SE Texas environment. Plus, the bold iron sights, on my Benellis, are better for my aging eyes than most of the sights, on most of my rifles. (Optics are wonderful, but when humidity is at or near 100%, and the dewpoint and ambient temperature are about the same, which is not uncommon along this wet, green, eastern edge of Texas, one needs iron sights.)

Again, I have nothing against defensive rifles. I especially like several specific lever rifles. If I knew I might well have to be proactive, with a long gun, especially if for an extended period of time, I would bring a rifle. I’d like to have both rifle and shotgun, with me, of course, but toting two long weapons takes serious commitment/planning.

 

[George P]

They are too young for Halo 1

And I am way too old for halo or any video game.

 

[entropy]

I favor shotguns for most defensive situations.

Likewise, though now an AR is in the mix, as SWMBO does not like any of the handguns, and definitely not the 12 ga.

I need a moment or two get my mind into the groove of the non-intuitive-for-me AR15/M4, so, a shotgun is my better grab-and-fight defensive long gun, with many more years of familiarization.

I am equally adept with both, though I have a couple more years with the shotgun, having not handled an AR until the age of 12. I was already well-trained with a pump shotgun by then. I handled AR's quite regularly (daily) for 3 years or so from 22-25 (and for one year [ROTC] at 17.) . Both sit at the ready at Maison d' entropy, the AR for SWMBO, the Ithaca 37 or the AR for me.

And I am way too old for halo or any video game.

I played Halo 2 for a while, and yes, I liked the shotgun there too. But that was 15 years ago, I don't play those games anymore.

 

[kBob]

I think shotguns are loosing popularity because the youth (under 35) did not spend hours in the field with one wasting way to much ammo trying to knock down dove, loosing a well shot quail in the bushes, stepping in holes the moment the rabbit appears, freezing their butts off in a deer stand or trying to figure out which way the dogs are going from their distant baying all while toting a smooth bore bit of pipe in a carved fence post.

When I talk to the underinformed about buck shot and a 12 gauge I like to compare it to being shot 8 or nine times with a .32ACP but all at once.

I like to compare a Foster slug to a Revolutionary War musket shot... only in my limited Musket experience the foster in the 12 gauge is MUCH more accurate and I get four shots before having to reload and can reload five and shoot them before I can just reload the flintlock musket.

My Dad once in the late 1950's used bird shot with the idea of running off what appeared to be a would be home invader next door. The guy was working on opening a window of the bedroom the neighbor slept in as her husband worked a night shift. As a fight stopper the load of #6 Bird shot from a .410 was a total waste at 20 yards.... unfortunatly for the guy at the neighbor's window he decided it was a minor wound and went home and crawled in bed....and did not wake up the next morning as a pellet had penitrated deep into his liver.

Now this never encouraged me to use Bird shot as a defensive round but more as a caution for under estimating how much damage any shotgun round could do. On the other hand I have seen close range wounds from bird shot and sure would not like to find such on me! I would rather have a 12 gauge with even #8 to defend the bedroom with than a baseball bat or quarter staff or blade weapon thank you very much, but yes Buckshot is the way to go. When I can get it I like #1 buck but 00 is just fine.

-kBob

 

[cdb1]

I’d never heard of Halo until reading this thread. The last time I played a video game was Atari in the 70’s. It bored me but it was crude in the extreme compared to video games today.

 

[pairof44sp]

I am a 12ga Buckshot Junkie. Have been all my life. Killed a whole lot of deer and always with 12 ga Buck. Now I am also the nicest guy I know. So if this Snowflake came over to tell me what the hell I was doing wrong, and what I should be doing right. I would have smiled and said God Bless you my Son. Thank you for the great advice. And for sure would not have wasted one round of Buck to show this guy the way of the world. Let him believe what he wants, because he needs a lot more learning about life than just Shotguns. And no, you do not need a slug unless going for yardage. Regardless, in my Old age and with the great amount of Patience I was given by the almighty, I use that gift to be polite, politically correct all the time. But GD it. My patience is about run out.

It would seem like buckshot would destroy a lot of meat. But of course it's called Buck shot for a reason. Is too much tissue damage an issue?

 

[PWC]

It would seem like buckshot would destroy a lot of meat. But of course it's called Buck shot for a reason. Is too much tissue damage an issue?

Not if it stops the fight

 

[George P]

But it is if the deer is too close

 

[Sarge7402]

A shotgun wouldn't be my 1st choice for anything other than shooting small game on the run or fly. But they are versatile enough to use a variety of ammo and be acceptable in a lot of other roles. If a fellow could only have one gun to do everything with it would have to be a shotgun.

Having been in Law Enforcement for the last 20 plus years, I can assure you that if you need a weapon to take the fight out of someone, the twelve gauge pump shotgun will do that 99.44 percent of the time

 

[Sarge7402]

Just remember the death toll in Rio Bravo of Stumpy and his sawed off double barrel.

More that John Wayne, Dean MArtin or Ricky Nelson

 

[JohnB-40]

Thanks for the reminder....I just went out to the workshop to inspect and clean mine. It has been in the corner by the bed for 3 years.

 

[lemaymiami]

I had my shotgun in hand for many years on any hot call (or any time we even suspected weapons might be involved...). My first step once I had it in hand was to rack the action to load a round in the chamber- with the safety on... then move into position. I only cleared that safety maybe once or twice in all those years since I needed to be absolutely certain that I could point that weapon at my target and never fire a shot if not intended.

Here's something that's not talked about much... and that is just how intimidating a short barrel shotgun is when it's pointed your way by someone intending to use it if necessary at close quarters. Like most cops I pointed handguns hundreds of times at active criminals - and many of them simply disregarded that sidearm - even at close quarters. With the shotgun most never ignored it - and that's really what law enforcement on the street is all about. What you're looking for is compliance only - you never wanted to fire a single shot if it's not absolutely necessary - and that shotgun was the ticket for that... One the plus side, if you ever have no other choice and do fire a round - it's a one shot fight ender at close quarters (and you won't have to follow a blood trail to see where the target went with a good center of mass hit).. If I even suspected that I was dealing with an armored bad guy (I worked the street in south Florida during the cocaine wars where more than one active shooter was wearing body armor -or might even be wearing a police uniform...) all that changed for me was my point of aim since most bullet-proof gear ends at the belt line...

Being able to take a violent subject into custody without a shot fired was very important to me back then. Glad I'm long out of that world - and that I only had to fire a single shot on the street in 22 years....

 

[cdb1]

I have a number of handguns but I’m not in to handguns. I don’t shoot them for pleasure, the only time I shoot them is to try to stay moderately proficient.

I’ve heard and read enumerable times over the years about gunfights between police and crooks and between crooks and crooks where only handguns are used. Many many shots are fired and very few, sometimes none, connect. The range is close too. I’ve been hunting with shotguns around fifty years and know I can hit what I am intending to hit at self defense and home defense distances-with a shotgun.

So in my mind the decision between handgun and shotgun for HD is made for me. The decision between shotgun and rifle is a little blurred but not much. Even though I’ve fired mucho rifle rounds in 61 years, especially if rimfire is included I’ve still probably fired more shotgun rounds. I have nothing objective to back it up with but I believe I can get an aimed/pointed shot off faster with a shotgun than a rifle because of all the wing shooting I’ve done over the years.

I of course believe it’s okay for an individual to state which type of firearm is best for themself for HD but believe it wrong to make a blanket statement that a particular type of firearm is best for everyone.

 

[cdb1]

We’ve all heard the old saw about racking a pump shotgun to scare away an intruder. I’ve never believed it because I want a shell in the chamber already and the sound of the rack might give an intruder a better sense of where I am if they are inclined to shoot at me.

 

[labnoti]

There are a few interesting scenarios in this old training video:



The first one is about the potential collateral damage from buckshot spread. Ok, so since then we've got flight-control wads but otherwise firing anything on a busy street is going to be risky. What about the parking-lot tussle or the ally fence-jumping scenarios? Sling? Or handgun?

 

[SDGlock23]

Very nice. I love the 12ga, I think everyone should own at least one because they're so versatile, you can do anything you want with a 12ga. Great for the home and an absolute blast to shoot clays and skeet. I have slugs but don't use them much, mostly I use either #1 or #4 buckshot around the house, backup to those is 00 buck.