Understanding a teacher's standpoint.

[VaughnT]

I've lately been reading Brian Enos' book on shooting and I have to say that I am very impessed. The depth to which he goes into the psychological aspect is amazing and I'm sure anyone following his advice will benefit.

However, the more I read, the more I see that he is coming from a competition stance, not a combat stance. This isn't a bad thing, but a reader/student needs to realize that there are gross differences between the two.

For example, he talks about minimizing pressure on the grip of the pistol so that one hand or the other doesn't steer the muzzle off line. This is great, but I seriously doubt someone in a real fight is going to do anything but put a deathgrip on that weapon, as Ayoob has mentioned in his books. This is a natural reaction to danger. If there is no danger of being killed, you won't 'feel' a lot of the same stimuli.

The book is great and the author is more than qualified. I just don't want to see folks getting confused. Some things transfer very well from competition to combat, but some don't.

I strongly recommend this author to anyone looking for some in-depth thinking on the mental aspect. Enos is really good.

 

[ACP230]

I don't think anyone will know how they will behave in a gun fight until after they've been in one. (The response might be variable from fight to fight too.)

I used to go to the Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot. At any given time 100-350 people could have been watching you hit or miss the pins. Additionally, Numer Uno of the whole shoot, Richard Davis, used to run the line. He used his microphone to tell bad jokes and comment on good performances and harass shooters who screwed up. I used to hear some shooters complain about this. On the line all that stuff receded for me. I never thought about spectators till afterward, and sometimes didn't hear anything Richard said, although I did here the blank starting signal and the call to clear the guns. I was nervous before the shooting started, but that cleared off once the pins were flying.

Competition is not combat, and I haven't experienced the latter. I have been in a couple of emergency situations. In one a co-worker put the edge of his hand into a band saw while making shingles. It was sudden and there was a lot of skin and blood in the air. I helped bandage his hand and another guy took him to the hospital. I was about 20 at the time and much calmer than I thought I would be in the situation.

In competition and hunting I've had the experience of time seeming to slow while I shot plates or waited for a deer to step out of cover. The pistol seemed to float from plate to plate in the match. I knew the deer was coming out and when it did I shot it and saw it fall while I was working the bolt. Time speeded up again after that, and then seemed to hiccup as the deer twisted. The rifle snapped back onto it almost without conscious thought.

I'm a bit out of practice now, due to a bitter winter and a series of health problems. I still have hope that in an emergency I would be able to access the same ability as I did before.

 

[VaughnT]

ACP, don't get me wrong. Enos would toast me royally if we ever squared off, regardless of the circumstances. I just didn't want someone with less insight than myself (is that boastful?) getting confused between the two styles. A lot of the information Mr. Enos imparts is very practical for any shooter.

Training comes in many colors and every experience we have in life will have some impact on how we behave when the chips are down.

 

[El Tejon]

Vaughn, excellent points but does not the path to true gunfu lie in the intregration of his style into fighting? Mr. Enos is gifted by God with outstanding eye-hand. How do those of us who care nothing for sport use his techinques to fight?

Yes, there is a difference, but there are similarities as well. How do we keep the baby and fling the dirty water (doodads, CDI, etc.)?

"Study judo, karate, kung fu, boxing, wrestling--use whatever works, then call it Hap Ki Do!" Donald Burns.

 

[Correia]

Enos is pretty straight forward that he is talking about competiton shooting. Great book. Probably helped me shoot better than anything else I have ever read.

 

[Quartus]

I don't think anyone will know how they will behave in a gun fight until after they've been in one. (The response might be variable from fight to fight too.

Well, not completely true. Just ask the gun store commandos. They can tell you all about how they or you will react. With certainty!


Seriously, that's a most excellent point. That's why I have trouble with your earlier statement, Vaughn:

I seriously doubt someone in a real fight is going to do anything but put a deathgrip on that weapon

I don't think such generalizations are valid. What is known from experience, though, it that you'll ususally do what you've trained. That's why training needs to be realistic. Of course, the training has to be repeated enough to become habit - just a few sessions is not going to do it.

 

[Denny Hansen]

IMO there is no such thing as bad training. Even if the instructor is full of bovine manure, turn the experience into something positive by knowing what not to do.

Example:
This past weekend I traded out time on my range to an instructor from Israel to show myself and a couple others the "Israeli" technique. While most of it won't work for me personally, I was still able to come away with a few new tricks for the "tactical toolbox."

It's all about options, folks.

Denny

 

[El Tejon]

I thought it was all about the "Benjamins"?

Am I un-hip (yet) again?

 

[BigG]

Took the words right outa my mouf!

I thought it was all about the "Benjamins"?

 

[sanchezero]

I'm often amused by the school of thought that contends that 'gaming' is worthless training for shooters. Not that that has been said here at all, but the idea certainly pertinent to the discussion. Visiting the tactics forum at Glock talk, you can drown in that argument .

It certainly is likely that if you acted in combat like you acted in an IDPA/IPSC match you'd most likely bite it. However, gunhandling and tactics are different and I contend that being able to draw from concealment and put two or three shots on vitals in 2 seconds is always a valuble skill in a gunfight .

If tactical education is included in a shooters training then survivability goes thru the roof.

It's certainly possible that topnotch gunhandling alone could take the day. I honestly wouldn't be shocked to see a top competitor stand his ground in a gunfight against a coupla thugs and come out of it fine. They are SO fast that they can possibly get the job done before the badguys can come up with a firing solution. I've read that Leatham has shot a low 3sec ElPres .

Of course, I don't advocate that approach and I don't believe that a competitive shooter would react that way. They spend a ton of time shooting while moving and prepping to shoot while moving.

Eno's book has lotsa good info on learning to relax and get good hits. The more relaxed you can be under 'normal stress' of a competition, the more relaxed you'll be when the SHTF. The more reflexive you can make your shooting the more resources you'll have available to put to work on tactical problems.



Disclaimer: I've never shot anyone. I'm not a professional firearms trainer. I'm not arguing with any statements posted above.



FYI: Some may not know the El Presidente Drill. Turn 180 degrees and fire 2 on each of three targets, reload, 2 on each again at 7 (or 10 for soopastuds ) yards.

 

[geekWithA.45]

No offense, but I'm suspicious of a 3 sec elPresidente.

Reasoning? I'll add it up, in seconds, using VERY fast speeds:

very fast draw to 1st shot: .7
very fast reload: .8
12 shots @ .3 = 3.6
total: 5.1


3 seconds to clear a target tray? Sure.

3 sec elPres? Well, maybe. Just maybe. If he could shave his shot time down to like .2, and still hit, and shave a few tenths off the reload, maybe.

They got video on this?

 

[VaughnT]

I had completely forgotten about this thread!

I've been reading Enos alongside Suarez and I guess the glaring differences in writing style and philosophy between the two really makes some things stand out.

I'll gladly agree with anyone that thinks running one or more of the gun games will come in handy in an actual fight. The skills learned, especially the relaxation, are vital to handling stress in combat.

Competitions are every bit as important as reading books or taking classes. Like most here, I need to spend less time talking the talk and more time on the range walking the walk.

Thanks for all the great input, gentlemen. That's the reason I've come to love this forum.

 

[BigG]

Here's a little gunning advice from an old movie:

"Gee, I can shoot almost as good as you and you killed 31 men!"

"That's because there's nobody shootin back, fella."

 

[sanchezero]

Reported times from some of the guys over at benos' forums are pretty incredible. These guys are like A class shooters, not IPSC GMs.

They're running 4 somethin' elPrez'.

draw .65-.75
reloads about right .7-1.0
splits .15-.2

Sick huh?



Of course, this is from open gear, mostly.

Also, at the SHOT show Leatham and Jarrett were reportedly crankin out .5 draws all day long .