Understanding powder changes

[AJC1]

There is always a new and improved and despite my limited understanding of chemistry, it appears that gunpowder is not exactly as complicated as research fuels for the x1 or x15. So I'm trying to figure out if superformance, lever evolution and n555 are just higher nitro powders than those in the simular areas of the burn rate chart, producing higher velocity and heat... I defer to the simple answers first. But if I'm confused, please explain.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

There is always a new and improved and despite my limited understanding of chemistry, it appears that gunpowder is not exactly as complicated as research fuels for the x1 or x15. So I'm trying to figure out if superformance, lever evolution and n555 are just higher nitro powders than those in the simular areas of the burn rate chart, producing higher velocity and heat... I defer to the simple answers first. But if I'm confused, please explain.

Best place to start IMO is with the safety data sheets. They show components and percentages (roughly) without giving away any industry secret formulas. Basic thing is, you have oxygenators, accelerants, inhibitors and ignitors. Most of these are based on nitrites or carbon. Graphite is a popular burn inhibitor because it also lubricates the nitro compound physical media and seals it away from moisture - at least to a certain degree. What the powder makers are trying to produce is a compound which will not transition from deflagration to detonation, under any circumstance. There's lots of ingredients to make that don't happen.

Here's a snippet from the SDS for Hodgdon LeveRevolution:


Notice first where it's made: St. Marks.
Second, this sheet also covers 20 other powders marketed under a variety of names with different percentages of these same ingredients.

Chalk and graphite are in all 20 of those miscellaneous powders, probably because they're good lubricants, good for moisture seal, and good flash suppressants. General purpose and cheap.

 

[AJC1]

Best place to start IMO is with the safety data sheets. They show components and percentages (roughly) without giving away any industry secret formulas. Basic thing is, you have oxygenators, accelerants, inhibitors and ignitors. Most of these are based on nitrites or carbon. Graphite is a popular burn inhibitor because it also lubricates the nitro compound physical media and seals it away from moisture - at least to a certain degree. What the powder makers are trying to produce is a compound which will not transition from deflagration to detonation, under any circumstance. There's lots of ingredients to make that don't happen.

Here's a snippet from the SDS for Hodgdon LeveRevolution:
View attachment 1086723

Notice first where it's made: St. Marks.
Second, this sheet also covers 20 other powders marketed under a variety of names with different percentages of these same ingredients.

Chalk and graphite are in all 20 of those miscellaneous powders, probably because they're good lubricants, good for moisture seal, and good flash suppressants. General purpose and cheap.

Very interesting... so I'm wrong and it's not nitro content?

 

[Coltdriver]

What is the burn rate order for the powders? My load books are in a moving box.

Each may attain its burn rate by different chemistry.

 

[AJC1]

What is the burn rate order for the powders? My load books are in a moving box.

Each may attain its burn rate by different chemistry.

The powders mentioned are standout powders in their area... everything is different in the mix from form factor to who makes them... in the case of 555 they just out and say it, as the 500 series is double base vs the 100 series.

 

[243winxb]

Hornady's salesmanship is like no other.

superformance

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/11/hornadys-emary-shares-superformance-ammo-secret/

November 24th, 2009-

a custom blend of the new ball propellants of various burn ranges. Hornady tailors the powder blend to achieve maximum velocity, accuracy, and low temp sensitivity for each load.

High Progressivity Powders
In addition to high sustained energy, Emary noted, the new propellants exhibit very high “progressivity”. What this means, in practical terms, is that the new propellants achieve almost 100% burn by the end of the cycle. So, virtually all of the mass of the powder has changed to gas by the time the bullet exits the muzzle. As a result, Emary explained “with Superformance propellants you have less ejecta leaving the muzzle.

See Morphology (size & shape effect burn rates) here. https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/a...ations/fsc/april2002/mccord.htm#disablemobile

Ammo/Brass that is factory loaded can withstand near proof loads, 1 time. Full maximum, maybe 3 or 4 loading. The primer pockets get loose.

 

[AJC1]

Hornady's salesmanship is like no other.


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/11/hornadys-emary-shares-superformance-ammo-secret/

November 24th, 2009-


See Morphology (size & shape effect burn rates) here. https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/a...ations/fsc/april2002/mccord.htm#disablemobile

Ammo/Brass that is factory loaded can withstand near proof loads, 1 time. Full maximum, maybe 3 or 4 loading. The primer pockets get loose.

Some guys do that in competition. I know I'm not going to nationals so I'll take my lower score, my shoulder barrel and throat in my barrel all last longer.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Very interesting... so I'm wrong and it's not nitro content?

No, you’re right. But double, single or triple base, like the bookies say, it’s all in the percentages. And the suppressant count is probably as important as the nitros.

 

[AJC1]

No, you’re right. But double, single or triple base, like the bookies say, it’s all in the percentages. And the suppressant count is probably as important as the nitros.

I've herd of triple mix of powders for huge naval guns and I have zero desire to mess with duplex loads but never herd of a triple base powder... the funnest part of this hobby is the millions of rabbit holes... mom always said a little learning isn't going to hurt you. The only problem is at this rate I'll have to live a thousand years to know it all.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've herd of triple mix of powders for huge naval guns and I have zero desire to mess with duplex loads but never herd of a triple base powder... the funnest part of this hobby is the millions of rabbit holes... mom always said a little learning isn't going to hurt you. The only problem is at this rate I'll have to live a thousand years to know it all.

LOL!! Well, hopefully you'll never know it all. Might as well be dead if there's nothing left to learn.

Now, for an example of how the percentages play out with nitro compounds, take a look at these two MSDS sheets:
Blue Dot and Unique
First thing to notice is, the MSDS for Blue Dot is also the MSDS for Green Dot, Red Dot, Clay Dot, Promo, Extra-Lite, .410, Herco, and 2400. Anyone who's loaded with those powders knows they are NOT interchangeable. What it does mean is they have the same ingredients but in different proportions. And, those proportions of things other than nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose are what determine their different burn rates, burn temperatures, flash, and other characteristics. It's the composition, not the ingredients. Likewise, the MSDS for Unique is also the sheet for Bullseye, Power Pistol, BE-86, E3, Pro Reach, 20/28, Steel, and Sport Pistol. Again, that's not to say those are all the same powder but they have the same ingredients in their basic composition but in different proportions to achieve a different result.

I guess the best analogy is whiskey. The malt, water, cask and blend all matter the most because when you get right down to it, ethyl alcohol is always C2H6O, just the same as any other organic ethanol, no matter how you distill it.

 

[Y-T71]

LOL!! Well, hopefully you'll never know it all. Might as well be dead if there's nothing left to learn.

Now, for an example of how the percentages play out with nitro compounds, take a look at these two MSDS sheets:
Blue Dot and Unique
First thing to notice is, the MSDS for Blue Dot is also the MSDS for Green Dot, Red Dot, Clay Dot, Promo, Extra-Lite, .410, Herco, and 2400. Anyone who's loaded with those powders knows they are NOT interchangeable. What it does mean is they have the same ingredients but in different proportions. And, those proportions of things other than nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose are what determine their different burn rates, burn temperatures, flash, and other characteristics. It's the composition, not the ingredients. Likewise, the MSDS for Unique is also the sheet for Bullseye, Power Pistol, BE-86, E3, Pro Reach, 20/28, Steel, and Sport Pistol. Again, that's not to say those are all the same powder but they have the same ingredients in their basic composition but in different proportions to achieve a different result.

I guess the best analogy is whiskey. The malt, water, cask and blend all matter the most because when you get right down to it, ethyl alcohol is always C2H6O, just the same as any other organic ethanol, no matter how you distill it.

Nice write-up!

I don't know much about most things but I really enjoy learning.

I readily admit to having absolutely no knowledge of the question asked and won't even pretend that I do.

However, since seeing it asked, it's a very interesting question, one I had never even contemplated before and I look forward to seeing more answers, facts and opinions!

I suppose, if pressed on a response, I would've automatically went to 'nitro content', and although I'm "aware" that there's many different components making up smokeless powders; fuels, deterrents, oxidizers, stabilizers etc I never went further than simply finding a powder for my application; not how it achieves my desired characteristics.

Interesting indeed.

Thanks

 

[twarr1]

Some powder components…
https://www.ammoreference.com/additives.html