Unintentional Discharge with 1911 in Public Bathroom

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Black Butte said:
Gun-happy armatures like this can get people killed. If you're going to take on the responsibility of carrying a loaded weapon, get training first so you know what you're doing. The general public is not the place to be field testing your methods.
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Ummm...let's not make an unwarranted assumption that this person, is a "gun-happy armature [sic]".

He's been carrying for a number of years, had an unintentional discharge, and posted what happened as a "lessons-learned" story for others to learn from. There's no indication in his story that he was some kind of gun-happy amateur.


As for the comments with respect to updating to a more modern firearm compared to this "antique":

While I am all for updating and such, and this is as good a reason as any, I am also of a mind that people should carry and handle whatever firearm they choose within the design limitations of the firearm. Know your firearm and handle it accordingly.
 
Personally Im not a fan of the 1911 platform. That aside I use the same method as SharpsDressedMan. My carry rig is a deep conceal pouched velcro waist band since I am in scrubs 80% of the time. When using the bathroom if I standing I just twist the band to the side a little and do my biz. Unfortunately its not easy when it comes to the squatting position so I either take the waistband off and gently place it and the gun down into the pants together or because sometimes that doesnt feel as safe I take the gun out first and safely place them both down into the pants seperately. Key is Never place the gun where it can fall. Either method of placing the gun in the crotch of the pants prevents it from falling and also keeps it concealed.
 
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SharpsDressedMan
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Join Date: February 18, 2007
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 5,564
When you have to dump, and don't want your pistol and holster sitting in plain view, still mounted on your belt and dropped trousers (visible from outside the stall), an option is to place the gun down in the crotch of your dropped pants. Shrouded by the pants themselves, anyone outside the stall cannot see the gun, and you have instant access to it if needed. You "don't mess with it" guys make it all sound so good and safe, IN THEORY, but leaving the gun holstered is not always an option. Develop your own plan "B"; mine works for me.
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Yup, but you don't have to remove the gun from the holster to do that. That's really the key. Just fold the belt and holster forward between your legs and the gun and holster will sit right there in the "hammock" made by the crotch of your pants.

They aught to teach this stuff in the "mandatory safety courses" folks clamor for.
 
Bikerdoc and ny32182: I was about 15 feet from a guy who had squatted down to get something off the floor and when he stood up his paddle holster containing a 1911 fell from his waistband and landed square on the muzzle. The floor was terrazo and the hollow point bullet broke up quite nicely, spraying a 25 foot area with fragments of the bullet and the floor. Quite exciting and no one seriously injured. Lots of reports were written, though.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Ummm...let's not make an unwarranted assumption that this person, [sic] is a "gun-happy amateur".

He's been carrying for a number of years, had an unintentional discharge, and posted what happened as a "lessons-learned" story for others to learn from. There's no indication in his story that he was some kind of gun-happy amateur.
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Carrying a loaded firearm is not a casual activity. Mistakes can get people killed. The time to learn is before you place the public at risk. You wouldn't allow a commercial pilot to skip flight school in favor of on-the-job training with fully loaded passenger jets. The trial-and-error approach is fine when you only place yourself at risk but not when you place others at risk of death or serious bodily harm.
 
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I suspect his 1911 was 'GI' in no firing pin lock and a weak firing pin spring.

Thus when it dropped and struck the muzzle of the gun the firing pin jumped forward and detonated a soft primmer.

Deaf
 
Black Butte said:
Carrying a loaded firearm is not a casual activity. Mistakes can get people killed. The time to learn is before you place the public at risk. You wouldn't allow a commercial pilot to skip flight school in favor of on-the-job training with fully loaded passenger jets. The trial-and-error approach is fine when you only place yourself at risk but not when you place others at risk of death or serious bodily harm.
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The problem I have is that there is no indication that the person was anything close to what you initially described him to be based on the information presented. In other words, it was an unwarranted assumption.

Yes, mistakes can get people killed. By the same token, there aren't any people alive who have not made mistakes in their lives, including with firearms, even if that mistake was something they did as a young novice just learning about firearms as they're growing up. That's what the older and (presumably) wiser amongst us are for...to guide people though these issues.


I would go so far as to say that it's a large indicator of maturity to be able to own up to one's mistakes in public so that others may learn from it as well...hopefully taking something valuable away that might prevent a similar occurance with someone else.
 
Black Butte said:
Carrying a loaded firearm is not a casual activity. Mistakes can get people killed. The time to learn is before you place the public at risk. You wouldn't allow a commercial pilot to skip flight school in favor of on-the-job training with fully loaded passenger jets. The trial-and-error approach is fine when you only place yourself at risk but not when you place others at risk of death or serious bodily harm.
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Well put.

This is a reason I dont advise folks on keeping one in pipe all the time. Nothing macho about it. I have seen big macho guys cry like babies when &$@& happens. Be safe and do not place public at risk. GET proper training AND understanding of your weapon before you even think of carrying a live round. Nothing cool about it.
 
el Godfather said:
Well put.

This is a reason I dont advise folks on keeping one in pipe all the time. Nothing macho about it. I have seen big macho guys cry like babies when &$@& happens. Be safe and do not place public at risk. GET proper training AND understanding of your weapon before you even think of carrying a live round. Nothing cool about it.
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I think you are teaching the wrong thing. You are saying it is okay to carry a gun without proper training as long as you don't keep one in the pipe? Okay... :rolleyes:

Get proper training and then carry a gun. After proper training the question of carrying a gun loaded vs not won't even come up.
 
allaroundhunter said:
I think you are teaching the wrong thing. You are saying it is okay to carry a gun without proper training as long as you don't keep one in the pipe? Okay... :rolleyes:

Get proper training and then carry a gun. After proper training the question of carrying a gun loaded vs not won't even come up.
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Clarification
I am NOT teaching anything. I am NOT an expert, and for certain I am NOT a qualified instructor.

This is internet and we share opinions. Someone who takes these opinions as teaching lesson must remember what Clint said "opinions are like xxxxxxxx everyone has one.''

That said, all I was trying to say was that there are different levels of training and expertise related to weapon handling. You cannot assume one set of sop for every level.
 
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el Godfather said:
Well put.

This is a reason I dont advise folks on keeping one in pipe all the time. Nothing macho about it. I have seen big macho guys cry like babies when &$@& happens. Be safe and do not place public at risk. GET proper training AND understanding of your weapon before you even think of carrying a live round. Nothing cool about it.
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Errr...

Not having "one in the pipe" kinda cuts down a wee bit on response time in a crisis, does it not?

When the need arises to actually use my firearm, I don't think I want to have both of my hands tied up in racking the slide to chamber the first round.

Just sayin'...

:scrutiny:
 
Few thoughts.

1. Holsters that cannot hold a pistol on its own does not meet my operational requirement. A good holster would have made it unnecessary for the person to take the gun out of the holster and look for a place to put it on.

2. Give thought to getting a pistol that put inertia fire into design consideration.

I understand the reasoning for avoiding series 80 or Schwartz type firing pin block. However, I do not understand what a luxury makers like Nighthawk did not at least incorporate options like light Tinanium firing pin to mitigate this issue.

3. The term "Accident" DOES NOT AND NEVER DID mean there is no negligence involved. Most car accident has a party at fault, but there is no breath wasted on "car negligence" vs "car accident." Only in gun community, people waste their breath over this.

Sure, accidents should be avoided. But, there is no reason why we should invite any more scrutiny for accidents, negligent or not, involving guns than any other accidents that have far more death and injuries involved to the amusement of the anti-gun crowd.

Anyone with a living brain cell knows many place accidents with hundreds of fatalities involve pilot error. But, do you see anyone in aviation community yelling "NO! No plane accident. It's plane NEGLIGENCE!" ?

"AD vs. ND!" What ever.

We already established there is a negligence involved. I don't see any good it would serve to anyone to argue over whether to pick a more or less "finger pointy" term other than some group of people showing their fan status to some gurus that invented this useless term of "ND."
 
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Black Butte said:
True, but it's still the lesser of two evils when someone doesn't get the requisite training needed to prevent negligent discharges. It also gives the gun-happy amateur a choice.

The idea is to prevent accidents like this fool shooting his own wife:

http://cjonline.com/news/2013-01-08/man-accidentally-shoots-wife-concealed-carry-gun
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If one cannot carry a firearm safely in a condition ready to speedily bring to bear during a self-defense scenario, then one should not be carrying a firearm in the first place.

If you have to incrementally disarm yourself (my own term here) by putting more and more obstacles between yourself and a firearm which is actually ready to be used to defend yourself, then what's the purpose?

We could also keep the loaded magazine separate from the gun, as well. Or we could keep the ammunition separate from the magazine, which is also separate from the gun.

Yes, not chambering a round in a carry firearm would have prevented this from happening and scaring the **** out of him when the gun fell and discharged. But so would proper understanding and handling practices in the first place.


A truely "gun-happy amateur" won't care about not chambering a round...because he's a "gun-happy amateur".

And simply following the four rules of gun safety would have preventing that man from shooting his wife.
 
The idea is to prevent accidents like this fool shooting his own wife:
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Both incidents could have been prevented by keeping the firearm in a simple piece of material, also known as a holster.
 
Both incidents could have been prevented by keeping the firearm in a simple piece of material, also known as a holster.
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There are all sorts of ways that people get careless with guns besides fingering the trigger and not minding the muzzle.

No gun is as safe if it's dropped as it is if it's not dropped. Be ever mindful of what could happen any time that the gun is being handled...including the effects of gravity.

The bottom line:

Is gun. Gun is not safe.
 
I suspect his 1911 was 'GI' in no firing pin lock and a weak firing pin spring.
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There have been some questions about how the safety slid out enough to let the slide come back as well. I think it goes to highlight one aspect of responsible firearms ownership - proper maintenance. For example, I know that when I replace the recoil spring in my Hi-Powers, it is time to replace the firing pin spring as well.
 
Having in pipe or not is not the issue. Issue is level of training.

That said, I will still NOT take the responsibility of advocating/advising someone to carry it loaded. I just wont. Its totally their OWN choice. I have seen my share of accidents. Thank you very much. I even posted one here a while back.

All the machoism goes right of the window with first handcuff on ya. Just do training, practice and pray you dont have to experience this to understand.
 
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I doubt this would have happened with a properly maintained Series 80.
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Yep.

At this point, it might be good to note that the 1911 pistol was not designed, nor was it intended to be a CCW weapon. It was designed and intended to be primarily a cavalryman's weapon...maintained in Condition Three until the Baker flag was hoisted.

It was neither designed nor intended to be continuously maintained in Condition One any more than the M1 rifle was.

It can be...but it does carry some risk. As long as we remain aware of those risks...like dropping it...and take care to circumvent them, we generally don't have much of a problem. If we get careless, we can suddenly have a big problem, but the same can be said for any loaded weapon. It's a gun, for the luvva Pete.
 
There have been discussions on what to do with your carry gun when you go to the bathroom in the past and the lesson learned that derive from the discussion is to not place your sidearm where you might leave it behind, drop/knock it off.

That leaves a holster secure enough to keep it on you regardless of any inconvenience or removing it and using the "hammock carry" ;) for taking care of business and then reholstering when you're done.
 
TestPilot said:
Anyone with a living brain cell knows many place accidents with hundreds of fatalities involve pilot error. But, do you see anyone in aviation community yelling "NO! No plane accident. It's plane NEGLIGENCE!" ?
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Well we call that pilot error, as you know, but yeah we call them "accidents" even though most could be avoided if the pilot made proper decisions.

This thread makes me want to get a shoulder holster.
 
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