Universal Background Check = Universal Registration.

[jar]

Are you serious or just that naive? I think you're just trolling

I support your right to think anything you want, but Yes Virginia, I am serious.

And I actually believe that people should be able to determine the laws of the society where they live. That is actually the way the system is designed in the US. I can try to influence the laws in my city, my county, my state and to a small extend the Nation but I cannot and in fact should not decide what laws and regulations the citizens of New York State or New Your City should have.

 

[George P]

I support your right to think anything you want, but Yes Virginia, I am serious.

And I actually believe that people should be able to determine the laws of the society where they live. That is actually the way the system is designed in the US. I can try to influence the laws in my city, my county, my state and to a small extend the Nation but I cannot and in fact should not decide what laws and regulations the citizens of New York State or New Your City should have.

No, not that concept, but that you really think the left will allow anything remotely happen to alleviate the current stranglehold they have on elections and gun laws in general.
Theories are nice, but reality doesn't always jive; so sorry Virginia, there really isn't a Santa Claus for us

 

[AlexanderA]

Actually yes, they have made no bones at all about their end goal.

The end goals of the rabid antigunners are irrelevant, if they can't persuade the majority of their fellow citizens. Our problem is that we're preaching to the choir, and not really addressing the vast silent middle. The antigunners are. We are very near the tipping point where we see gun rights go up in smoke, unless we correct this shortcoming quickly.

Part of this problem arises from the fact that gun-rights organizations are money-oriented. Preaching to the choir garners them contributions, while attempting outreach to the larger public costs them money. It's a matter of their balance sheets, and cash inflow versus outflow.

 

[GEM]

That is a sad truth.

 

[Deanimator]

The end goals of the rabid antigunners are irrelevant, if they can't persuade the majority of their fellow citizens.

They don't need to persuade a majority of their fellow citizens, only a majority of relevant legislators.

 

[P5 Guy]

Isn't UBC sort of like when the NFA registry was closed?
If there are according to estimates 300,000,000 firearms already in private hands, won't the only UBC registered firearms be 'seen' by the ATF?

 

[AlexanderA]

They don't need to persuade a majority of their fellow citizens, only a majority of relevant legislators.

But the legislators follow what they perceive to be the sentiments of their constituents. Change the sentiments of the grass roots, and you change the sentiments of the legislators. Or else, the legislators get replaced by others who are more amenable to the grass roots. This is Rule #1 of politics. The antigunners know this. They are more focused on changing public opinion than the pro-gun side is. The pro-gun side seems to be content in mobilizing its pre-existing supporters, and doesn't so much try to add to their numbers. To add to pro-gun numbers, you have to convince people that guns are a positive benefit. You can't scare people with the bugaboo of confiscation, because the people in the middle, that need to be convinced, are either not gun owners or are very casual gun owners, and this prospect doesn't scare them.

 

[Deanimator]

But the legislators follow what they perceive to be the sentiments of their constituents.

Not necessarily.

There are more than enough hard core ideologues in favor of racially invidious gun controls. Bill Clinton admitted as much. Didn't stop them from passing the sham "assault weapon" ban.

 

[Walkalong]

Nor am I helping antis. What I am doing is trying to actually realistically address the problems.

Not the way I read it, haven't seen one good suggestion yet, only how we are "wrong". And I have not insulted you, as you have others in the thread.

 

[Sistema1927]

And I see no problem with even a Brazillion gun laws. Saying there is some problem with 20,000 gun control laws is a problem is one of those utterly silly juvenile arguments. The number of laws is irrelevant. The content of some specific law may be relevant. Local laws are irrelevant, they are the laws the local population wants and can be changed by the local population.

Looks like we need a reminder here:

 

[Tommygunn]

And I see no problem with even a Brazillion gun laws. Saying there is some problem with 20,000 gun control laws is a problem is one of those utterly silly juvenile arguments. The number of laws is irrelevant. The content of some specific law may be relevant. Local laws are irrelevant, they are the laws the local population wants and can be changed by the local population.

An argument borne of supreme indifference to the principles set forth in the Constitution, defeating any logical (as well as many irrational) arguments whatsoever.

Have a nice life.

 

[HuckFinn]

“Universal Background Check = Universal Registration”

Actually not.

The argument that a universal background check will result in universal registration fails as a slippery slope fallacy.

Now that we have a universal background check law here in Washington State with a central data base (Registration) for all semi-auto guns and god knows what's next with make, model and serial number. How can you believe UBC is not "Universal Registration? Law enforcement is already confiscating them here and elsewhere through the new red flag law (ERPO) using data from registration records.

 

[CapnMac]

While there are antis in the commonweal, they are individuals, just as we are; their votes are as ours.

Where the difference lies is in the elites, who are most assuredly not in favor of disparate individualists exercising their rights as they deem fit, rather than when their "betters" allow.

Those elites are infatuated with power, which leads them to politics, where they dice about with their own ilk more or less. "Our" ability to contend with those elites is based upon our ability to influence those in political power who would vie for competing political power. Sadly, that requires the engine of politics: Money.

We also have to succeed in an information war to the masses entrenched in the mega-urban concentrations, a group too much in thrall to the entrenched elites. The commonweal in those polities sees the failure of the policies of the elite, but must need rely upon them to succor them for those failures. So, the elites offer up Potemkin promises: This new Law will save you. When it doesn't another straw man will be stood up to be slain by the next new thing.

When Brady first came about, it established an ugly precedent--that all firearm purchases can be denied. But, we may grant you peons the right to your purchases after some time delay. Our political side managed to cut the Gordian Knot by setting up NICS, which reduced, but did not obviate the delay. And, after more than three decades, we consider that delay, that infringement, "normal." Much as, after 50 years, we consider it perfectly normal that we prove we are not guilty on a 4473.

UBC are designed to fail, that is their purpose, in that failure, greater and farther-reaching infringements will be insisted upon.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

They don't need to persuade a majority of their fellow citizens, only a majority of relevant legislators.

Yep. The left is controlled by a loud mouth minority of people who are rabid, and quite insane, in their belief system and in their determination to force their will onto a rather apathetic populous. They control the media, big tech, education and for the most part DC.

Don't kid yourself people: the left is communist/socialist at their core, and that means they are atheists, and evolutionists. Essentially, they want population control so they are adamantly pro-abortion and pro euthanasia. They absolutely want a one-world government to control everybody, all the time. And, with big tech helping them out, they will get absolute control. Sooner or later, it's coming.

It's only because of people like you and me that they haven't gotten everything they want as of right now. But don't kid yourself, they want total and absolute gun control. The "progressive" left does not care about your well being, or your health or your religion, or your personal happiness or anything like that. They want total control. Absolute control. They think they know everything, and they think they are smarter than you and me.

And that's just the hard cold facts of where we are at in this USA, at this time. The Democrats should be renamed the Communist/Socialist Party of the United States. They are that far gone. The Rhinos in the Republican party are just mouth pieces, they really don't care either. They are, at best, apathetic to the plight of this country, and at worst, a Democrat underneath.

 

[Casefull]

You are absolutely right sir. Probably going to get this thread locked though. Hooray for free speech.

 

[Sistema1927]

I would also say that the other side has no qualms about the use of lies and dirty tricks. To them, their desired ends allow any means. Most Constitutionalists hold to objective truth and personal morality. As such, we are actually punching with one hand tied behind our backs, but we would have it no other way, knowing that some things are more important. In other words, we are not about to lose our souls while gaining the world.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

I would also say that the other side has no qualms about the use of lies and dirty tricks. To them, their desired ends allow any means. Most Constitutionalists hold to objective truth and personal morality. As such, we are actually punching with one hand tied behind our backs, but we would have it no other way, knowing that some things are more important. In other words, we are not about to lose our souls while gaining the world.

Exactly. It's right out of the Marxist handbook: the end justifies the means. Lie, cheat, steal, do whatever it takes to gain control.

 

[boom boom]

Overall the UBC fight is a symptom. Money, media, and elites do not win every issue or even every election but that depends on how much fight is in the dog (citizen).

A) everyone and all of your like minded acquaintances should be registered to vote and vote in every dang election down to those school board elections. Work WITH OTHERS, to unseat bad legislators at your local, state, and federal level but recognize that C+ legislator is preferably to the one proposing confiscation. Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. That means becoming political--on the Republican side, want to get those not supporting gun rights then work within that party. For Democrats whose party is drifting into outright denial of the 2A, then you need to unseat those legislators and replace them with more reasonable ones. That means getting involved in politics and primaries.

B) Money--far more people are interested in buying a new rifle or hoarding more ammo than in spending some bucks on campaign contributions. If you don't like the NRA, fine, then contribute money on your own or create your own PAC but make clear to the politician why you are doing so. Most of us do not hold the same view of the 2A Foundation so if you find giving to politicians intolerable then give to the legal beagles. Join the GOA, etc. if you find the NRA too accommodating if you must but join and contribute to SOME pro-gun rights group.

C) Time--building coalitions is a pain and people that like to claim that they have the only correct answer in the room need to chill. It takes time and you WILL have to compromise on some positions when presenting a group response. Create your own groups or network off of the NRA at awards banquets etc. Some states have active organizations that are NOT the NRA. Any organization takes time and effort, but you know what, you meet your neighbors, create a network of friends, find commonalities on other issues, etc. that you will not get by binge watching Game of Thrones on HBO. I've met some interesting people in politics and a lot of them I would not have met any other way.

D) Write emails ( you can use the NRA's or other stuff to crib from but don't carbon copy stuff) or better yet send a fax (mailing Congress critters is mainly useless due to delays in arrival now). Visit their offices when in Washington or your state capitol. Take your legislator or a staffer to lunch and attend those committee hearings on gun laws. Be politically active. Write letters to the editor, push back on Facebook and other social media. Start a local oriented blog with gun law links and other newbie friendly information.

For a primer on getting involved in politics, I advise Take Back Your Government by Robert Heinlein to start with. Second, contact your local/state/national organizations and ask how you can help them. Ask others to help too--it does not take that much money to get started but it does take commitment for the long haul and despite discouraging rejections, losses, and tepid responses. Just remember, it took 7 years of hard slogging in a war for the US to win its independence.

 

[George P]

For a primer on getting involved in politics, I advise Take Back Your Government by Robert Heinlein to start with. Second, contact your local/state/national organizations and ask how you can help them. Ask others to help too--it does not take that much money to get started but it does take commitment for the long haul and despite discouraging rejections, losses, and tepid responses. Just remember, it took 7 years of hard slogging in a war for the US to win its independence.

To best your enemy, you better also read and understand what THEY are reading; Rules for Radicals by Alinksy is a major play book for them; it has been used extensively by the left, including Clinton. You need to know them better than they know themselves if you want to beat them at their own game. And right now, they control the rule book, the refs and the game clock.

 

[GEM]

We are way off the UBC rails with just pure politics. I am putting this one out of its misery. If a real UBC proposal comes to the fore, we can revisit the issue. General OMG politics isn’t our focus.
Closed.