Universal v. Winchester M1 Carbine designs?

[jski]

Let me suggest maybe the ultimate heresy: the Universal M1 Carbine design is superior to the Winchester design. Though the implementation may be somewhat flawed.

In 1968 Abe Seiderman (Combination manual and automatic bolt action for firearms US 3382766 A) radically redesigned the M1 Carbine, including the slide, gas chamber, etc. An excellent site for this is: Post WWII Commercially Manufactured M1 Carbines (U.S.A.). The result is probably the only significant rethink of the original Winchester design.

I own both and can honestly say the Universal is more reliable than the Winchester. Now I've made a few changes: I replaced the slide with a new one made of 4130 steel, heat treated to 35Rc from BKHose on Gunbroker, and replaced ALL the spring with Wolff Gunsprings. I've also replaced ALL the springs on my Kahr M1 Carbine Winchester design with Wolff springs.

The Universal is ~1 lb. heavier than the Winchester design but seems more solid. It also has 2 slide springs, v. 1 for the Winchester design, and consequently handles heavier reloads better.

Just to stir the pot some!

 

[eastbank]

stir the pot with this, the original USGI carbine is a icon that has not been made since 1945 and has served in a major war and countless little ones. as a matter of fact the first universal carbines were made from original USGI parts, but when the parts ran out universal made cheap ones to replace the USGI parts and thats when the quality of universal carbines went down hill. after you do all the things you said need done to made a universal run, take it to a gun show and lay it next to decent USGI carbine with a price tag of 800.00 on both and see whitch one sells. or ask 10 people what carbine they would prefer. can a universal be made to work,yes. but they should work from day one with out replacing any parts. i own several USGI carbines(one winchester) and they all have run from day one with out replacing any parts, except good ammo and magizines. this carbine was made in 1944 and the worst i own and yet after serving in wars and being over 70 years old it flat out works. eastbank..

 

[CoalTrain49]

Just about all guns at some point need parts replaced, springs especially. I don't know about Universals or any of the new carbines but I know a thing or two about USGI carbines. I've rebuilt two of them and I can tell you parts wear out. Auto loaders are hard on bolt parts like extractors and ejectors. The USGI carbines were designed very well and have a very long service life but you have to maintain them.

The nice thing about USGI carbines is they made 7 million of them and NOS parts are still out there and being sold. I just bought a bolt service pack surplussed from the US Army and 20 original 1940's magazines surplussed from the Austrian gov't.

And why will you need to shoot heavier loads? The original mil load was for 2000 fps. I find that the sweet spot for accuracy is around 1750 fps. That's a reduced load, not a hotter load.

No thanks, I'll stick with real deal.

 

[4v50 Gary]

There were a lot of Universals and its major competitor, Plainfield, on the market back in the '70s. I prefer USGI.

 

[jski]

Why the heavy reloads? Because I own a .30 Carbine Blackhawk and just use the same loads for both. And I shoot the Blackhawk more often. Basically I'm using a pistol load. Its easier than having to make separate loads.

 

[Uncle Nubbs]

I had what you could call a gen 2 Universal and it was a pretty decent little shooter. If you follow the progression of Universal carbines, this would be the first run with the cut away for the bolt cam on the right side of the receiver and a set screw on the back of the charging handle. Also, internally I think the first run with the dual recoil springs. Anyway, it was fun and reliable. My understanding is to avoid the later ones as quality diminished.

I sold mine thinking fun as it was, id rather get a true USGI in the collection and I have other semi autos to fill this role.

Side note: today at the gunshow I saw one of the little pistol gripped "enforcer" models. Briefly considered the $345 or so the guy was asking just because it's a fun looking gun.

 

[jski]

I have a late model Universal without the set screw and have been very pleased with its quality. I believe the true slide in quality occurred when Universal was bought by Iver Johnson's Arms. Evidently, none of the FL workers agreed to relocate to AR. Consequently, they lost all their Universal experience.

 

[jski]

The Universal M1 Carbine design is junk. Inferior materials used throughout. And very few parts are remotely interchangeable with an issue Carbine.
"...Universals, due to their redesign, are more likely to fire out of battery..." No more than any other Carbine, but the poorly made, stamped, op handles tend to break and are expensive to replace. $89.99 each from Gunparts, when they have any.

The materials may have been a compromise. That's why I replaced the slide, Made of 4130 steel heat treated to 35Rc, and ALL the springs using Wolff Gunsprings. Remember, the gun was almost certainly intended to be a "trunk gun". A utilitarian weapon, not a show piece.

But the design is a completely different issue. There is NO stamped sheet metal to be found anywhere. And the redesign of the slide plus bolt plus gas cylinder were done for a good purpose: Universal Changes.

 

[dranrab]

Is anyone making 30 carbine rifles anymore?

 

[jski]

Check out:

Inland Manufacturing M1 1945 Carbine

Auto-Ordnance

Fulton Armory

 

[CapnMac]

Inland Manufacturing M1 1945 Carbine

MSRP $900; not a lot of good press, may or may not use AO parts

Auto-Ordnance

MSRP $1100; very little good press

Fulton Armory

MSRP $1600

Also
https://www.jamesriverarmory.com/products/category/35-rockola-m1-carbine.html
MSRP $1300

 

[hdwhit]

...the Universal M1 Carbine design is superior to the Winchester design.

In what respect?

I am familiar with both and my impression is that both were completely serviceable designs. I did not find them to be completely serviceable rifles.

Though the implementation may be somewhat flawed.

Based on my experience with two different Universal carbines, I couldn't agree more. Both of my Universals would not feed reliably from any 30 round magazine I owned (and I had nearly twenty from different manufacturers and vintages). It was fine with most of the 15 round magazines I owned, but not the 30s.

 

[jski]

Hdwhit,

By "flawed implementation", I primarily meant the use of less than the best materials. I have found that with 2 replacements you'll be in good stead.

1. Replace the slide using one made of 4130 steel, heat treated to 35Rc from BKHose on Gunbroker.
   
   
2. Replace ALL the springs using Wolff Gunsprings.

 

[Old Guy]

CoalTrain49

How do I pick up those original 15 round magazines, I obtained one with the Carbine, the Korean ones feel like paper!

I originally thought that the Security Industry would go to Rifles, and these little GI models would get the nod, over AR15s.

Not happened.

 

[CoalTrain49]

CoalTrain49

How do I pick up those original 15 round magazines, I obtained one with the Carbine, the Korean ones feel like paper!

I originally thought that the Security Industry would go to Rifles, and these little GI models would get the nod, over AR15s.

Not happened.

They come up from time to time here. http://forums.thecmp.org/forumdisplay.php?f=88&order=desc

A guy named Colin who lives in Germany put 4 or 5 thousand up for sale a few years ago. I believe they were Austrian gov't surplus. They were either in unused condition or lightly used condition packed in cosmoline. Some people on this board bought several hundred and I see them coming up for sale from time to time. Going price is about $25 apiece but they are OEM and run the best.

 

[Merle1]

In what respect?

I am familiar with both and my impression is that both were completely serviceable designs. I did not find them to be completely serviceable rifles.



Based on my experience with two different Universal carbines, I couldn't agree more. Both of my Universals would not feed reliably from any 30 round magazine I owned (and I had nearly twenty from different manufacturers and vintages). It was fine with most of the 15 round magazines I owned, but not the 30s.

Guess I got lucky - my Universal fed just fine from 15 and 30 round mags. As long as they were GI - commercial? Not so much.

 

[Old Guy]

Thank you Sir.

 

[FL-NC]

IMO, the universal is an abomination, and a feeble attempt to make someTHING that outwardly resembles the US 30 caliber carbine. I remember in the 70's you could buy universals at JC Penny's.

 

[jski]

FL-NC, that's not what I would call a thoughtful or useful critique of anything. Was the Universal horrible because you could buy one at Penny's? Because you could buy it for $75. And why does that make it horrible?

I'm sorry but I've heard comments akin to yours regarding the GI M1 Carbine itself. Equally nonsensical.

My reloads using FMJ, plated, and hard cast lead bullets, which I mainly intend for my .30 Carbine Blackhawk, have pretty stiff loads - 14-15 gr. of Hodgdon H110. They cycle without issue thru the Universal. I wouldn't even think of running them thru my GI M1 Carbine. As well as Russki steel case ammo.