US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war

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funnybone

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US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war

By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer 14 minutes ago

As Sgt. Joe Higgins patrolled the streets of Saba al-Bor, a tough town north of Baghdad, he was armed with bullets that had a lot more firepower than those of his 4th Infantry Division buddies.

As an Army sniper, Higgins was one of the select few toting an M14. The long-barreled rifle, an imposing weapon built for wars long past, spits out bullets larger and more deadly than the rounds that fit into the M4 carbines and M16 rifles that most soldiers carry.

"Having a heavy cartridge in an urban environment like that was definitely a good choice," says Higgins, who did two tours in Iraq and left the service last year. "It just has more stopping power."

Strange as it sounds, nearly seven years into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bullets are a controversial subject for the U.S.

The smaller, steel-penetrating M855 rounds continue to be a weak spot in the American arsenal. They are not lethal enough to bring down an enemy decisively, and that puts troops at risk, according to Associated Press interviews.

Designed decades ago to puncture a Soviet soldier's helmet hundreds of yards away, the M855 rounds are being used for very different targets in Iraq and Afghanistan. Much of today's fighting takes place in close quarters; narrow streets, stairways and rooftops are today's battlefield. Legions of armor-clad Russians marching through the Fulda Gap in Germany have given way to insurgents and terrorists who hit and run.

Fired at short range, the M855 round is prone to pass through a body like a needle through fabric. That does not mean being shot is a pain-free experience. But unless the bullet strikes a vital organ or the spine, the adrenaline-fueled enemy may have the strength to keep on fighting and even live to fight another day.

In 2006, the Army asked a private research organization to survey 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nearly one-fifth of those who used the M4 and M16 rifles wanted larger caliber bullets.

Yet the Army is not changing. The answer is better aim, not bigger bullets, officials say.

"If you hit a guy in the right spot, it doesn't matter what you shoot him with," said Maj. Thomas Henthorn, chief of the small arms division at Fort Benning, Ga., home to the Army's infantry school.

At about 33 cents each, bullets do not get a lot of public attention in Washington, where the size of the debate is usually measured by how much a piece of equipment costs. But billions of M855 rounds have been produced, and Congress is preparing to pay for many more. The defense request for the budget year that begins Oct. 1 seeks $88 million for 267 million M855s, each one about the size of a AAA battery.

None of the M855's shortcomings is surprising, said Don Alexander, a retired Army chief warrant officer with combat tours in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Somalia.

"The bullet does exactly what it was designed to do. It just doesn't do very well at close ranges against smaller-statured people that are lightly equipped and clothed," says Alexander, who spent most of his 26-year military career with the 5th Special Forces Group.

Paul Howe was part of a U.S. military task force 15 years ago in Mogadishu, Somalia's slum-choked capital, when he saw a Somali fighter hit in the back from about a dozen feet away with an M855 round.

"I saw it poof out the other side through his shirt," says Howe, a retired master sergeant and a former member of the Army's elite Delta Force. "The guy just spun around and looked at where the round came from. He got shot a couple more times, but the first round didn't faze him."

With the M855, troops have to hit their targets with more rounds, said Howe, who owns a combat shooting school in Texas. That can be tough to do under high-stress conditions when one shot is all a soldier might get.

"The bullet is just not big enough," he says. "If I'm going into a room against somebody that's determined to kill me, I want to put him down as fast as possible."

Dr. Martin Fackler, a former combat surgeon and a leading authority on bullet injuries, said the problem is the gun, not the bullet. The M4 rifle has a 14.5 inch barrel — too short to create the velocity needed for an M855 bullet to do maximum damage to the body.

"The faster a bullet hits the tissue, the more it's going to fragment," says Fackler. "Bullets that go faster cause more damage. It's that simple."

Rules of war limit the type of ammunition conventional military units can shoot. The Hague Convention of 1899 bars hollow point bullets that expand in the body and cause injuries that someone is less likely to survive. The United States was not a party to that agreement. Yet, as most countries do, it adheres to the treaty, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The Hague restrictions do not apply to law enforcement agencies, however. Ballistics expert Gary Roberts said that is an inconsistency that needs to be remedied, particularly at a time when so many other types of destructive ordnance are allowed in combat.

"It is time to update this antiquated idea and allow U.S. military personnel to use the same proven ammunition," Roberts says.

In response to complaints from troops about the M855, the Army's Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey assigned a team of soldiers, scientists, doctors and engineers to examine the round's effectiveness. The team's findings, announced in May 2006, concluded there were no commercially available rounds of similar size better than the M855.

But Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Corps major, said the Army buried the study's most important conclusion: that larger-caliber bullets are more potent.

"It was manipulated," says Milavic, a Vietnam veteran who manages an online military affairs forum called MILINET. "Everybody knows there are bullets out there that are better."

Officials at Picatinny Arsenal declined to be interviewed. In an e-mailed response to questions, they called the M855 "an overall good performer." Studies are being conducted to see if it can be made more lethal without violating the Hague Convention, they said.

Larger rounds are not necessarily better, they also said. Other factors such as the weather, the amount of light and the bullet's angle of entry also figure into how lethal a single shot may be.

Heavier rounds also mean more weight for soldiers to carry, as well as more recoil — the backward kick created when a round is fired. That long has been a serious issue for the military, which has troops of varied size and strength.

The M14 rifle used by Joe Higgins was once destined to be the weapon of choice for all U.S. military personnel. When switched to the automatic fire mode, the M14 could shoot several hundred rounds a minute. But most soldiers could not control the gun, and in the mid-1960s it gave way to the M16 and its smaller cartridge. The few remaining M14s are used by snipers and marksman.

U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., is buying a carbine called the SCAR Heavy for its commandos, and it shoots the same round as the M14. The regular Army, though, has invested heavily in M4 and M16 rifles and has no plans to get rid of them.

A change in expectations is needed more than a change in gear, said Col. Robert Radcliffe, chief of combat developments at Fort Benning. Soldiers go through training believing that simply hitting a part of their target is enough to kill it. On a training range, getting close to the bulls-eye counts. But in actual combat, nicking the edges isn't enough.

"Where you hit is essential to the equation," Radcliffe says. "I think the expectations are a little bit off in terms of combat performance against target range performance. And part of that is our fault for allowing that expectation to grow when it's really not there at all."

The arguments over larger calibers, Radcliffe says, are normal in military circles where emotions over guns and bullets can run high.

"One of the things I've discovered in guns is that damned near everyone is an expert," he says. "And they all have opinions."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080527...ver_bullets;_ylt=Ag.19k7MbJNBDnxp6CBdDfCs0NUE
 
Something tells me that most of the folks who get issued M14 rifles understand fire discipline... 200 rounds of .308 weighs a LOT more than 200 rounds of .223, and I can just imagine the bitching that would ensue...
 
I pay 52 cents per round for M193 and about 95 cents per round for Hornady TAP 5.56 rounds.

oh btw - if the government doesn't want the M855... I'll buy them. All of them.
 
Interesting to see that the .gov is paying $0.33/rd for 5.56
Nope thats the bullet plus the salery per person involved for the time it takes to make 1 bullet. I figure its more like $.03 per bullet.

I wonder how the 30 carbine would fair out. like said earlier tompsons and m3 grease guns would work a lit better for house clearing. 5.56 has its advantages but it all gets traded off for stoping power. 308 has the stoping power but really heavy recoil to get good follow up shots. I have tried the 6.8 and 6.5 and can not say they would be any better. Perhaps a new round somthing like a 6.8 spc necked up to a 7mm, good velociety and the bullet selections of the 7mm???
 
That $.33/rd also buys guaranteed consistent velocity, penetration, accuracy, dent/corrosion-free, in specific packaging, RFID for tracking, etc. I guess when you buy ammo in lots of 250mil cartridges, you can demand whatever you want.

Kharn
 
I am not sure what the author is getting at. Should we switch to expanding bullets, then? Then they would decry the use of those eee-vil "dum-dum" bullets. :rolleyes:

Personally, I would be OK with this, however. WE never signed the Hague Accords, and the enemy is not a military force of a warring nation, so they should not have such a protection. And how do you shoot someone nicely? :confused:
 
Rules of war limit the type of ammunition conventional military units can shoot. The Hague Convention of 1899 bars hollow point bullets that expand in the body and cause injuries that someone is less likely to survive. The United States was not a party to that agreement. Yet, as most countries do, it adheres to the treaty, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The Hague restrictions do not apply to law enforcement agencies, however. Ballistics expert Gary Roberts said that is an inconsistency that needs to be remedied, particularly at a time when so many other types of destructive ordnance are allowed in combat.

"It is time to update this antiquated idea and allow U.S. military personnel to use the same proven ammunition," Roberts says.


I've always thought the prohibition of hollow-point bullets in warfare to be quite ridiculous considering that the nature of warfare is to kill. Especially in the present day, where the enemies we currently face have absolutely no limit on the means by which they attempt to kill our personnel.

If it is allowable to kill enemy combatants with 500 or 1000 lb. bombs, 155mm artillery, 120mm tank rounds or even guided missiles, then I hardly see how hollow-point rounds or other frangible projectiles are any more or less "inhumane".

Jeffrey
 



Rules of war limit the type of ammunition conventional military units can shoot. The Hague Convention of 1899 bars hollow point bullets that expand in the body and cause injuries that someone is less likely to survive. The United States was not a party to that agreement. Yet, as most countries do, it adheres to the treaty, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

This is incorrect on several levels. First, open tipped bullets are not banned by the Haque Conventions. Second, open tipped bullets are what the snipers are currently using in the M14, the Sierra MatchKing® specifcally is what on 12 October 1990 the Commander of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) and coordinated with the Department of State, Army General Counsel, as well as the Offices of the Judge Advocates General of the Navy and Air Force, stated that:

"The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. … Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United States Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. (The Sierra #2200 BTHP) not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat."

Then, when the H&K-manufactured Mk 23 Mod 0 pistol came on the scene, they acquired 230 grain JHPs for it.

 
I read the first few paragraphs and there were too many contradictions for me. like this
Fired at short range, the M855 round is prone to pass through a body like a needle through fabric.

Dr. Martin Fackler, a former combat surgeon and a leading authority on bullet injuries, said the problem is the gun, not the bullet. The M4 rifle has a 14.5 inch barrel — too short to create the velocity needed for an M855 bullet to do maximum damage to the body.

So the bullet is going too fast AND too slow to do any damage???
 
That article makes my head hurt.

Lets see, according to them:
1) The current 5.56 isn't good at close range
2) The M14 being used as a DMR is better.. but isn't used point blank like the M4

*brain hurts*

3) The barrel of the M4 is short so the bullet doesn't have the high velocity (at extended ranges) that it was designed to.. but we are talking about short ranges anyways so that's entirely irrelevant.

*headache*

So let's see what we know now... the M14 is a better long range platform than the M4.. which we all already know and really isn't important anyways since the article was supposed to be talking about CQB and point blank engagements. :scrutiny: What the hell?

Yeah, let's see how much better that M14 is going through a doorway. :uhoh:
 
nearly 1/5th say they want bigger bullets?

so the "journalist" fails to mention the obvious: over 4/5ths don't

hmm...
 
I saw studies when I was in the service that showed that, in certain situations, a hollow point bullet isn't near as effective as a full jacketed bullet. If the person you are engaging is wearing certain clothing the bullet will expand and not get near the penetration.
 
You guys saw a lot more inconsistancies than I did in a skimming read. My bet is that most of their readers are the same. It is jsut a skim through, to get the gist. The result is that people really buy what is being read without carefully thinking it through. This time I was one of them. Thanks for pointing out the problems with this article.
 
Well gee whiz. Looks like the 7.62x39 is the answer. Again.

Oh that's right, we're Americans and can't use a Russian cartridge. Or something similar anyway.
 
Well gee whiz. Looks like the 7.62x39 is the answer. Again.

Ah there you are why did it take so long?

I knew sooner or later the 7.62x39 would come up again. Seems logical if only an accurate rifle could be built around it.
 
I read that article and was waiting for them to talk about the 7.62 being a more inaccurate round, but alas, more US military bashing. The .223 outranges 7.62 and therefore gives the U.S. an advantage. It's all give and take, get more range/accuracy, less power; less range, more power/recoil.
 
A fire team of five men clearing buildings should, and usually does carry several different calibers, including a couple of shotguns as backup.

As I'm so fond of saying, there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all caliber or weapon.

By using two or three different calibers on the same number of different platforms the members of the team can better cover any situation that arises.

While I don't personally like the M-16/AR platform, or the 223 caliber, it does have certain advantages. Weight, as has been mentioned, is one of those advantages. If you think weight isn't a big consideration, try humping humping a few hundred rounds of .308 around in a jungle in the summer. You might find that you start liking the AR platform a little better as you go: I know I did.

I know that the lighter round of the AR is more easily deflected by brush and such, but using ball ammunition it also has a lot of penetrating power in an urban environment.

Personally, if I were outfitting a five man fire team for house clearing I would have three M-16, or M-4 (I guess is the new designation). Two of those would have backup 12 gauges. The remaining two would have an M-14s and carry 9mm machine pistols as backup. All would also have side arms. Then the back up for that team, and two other teams, would be in a vehicle with three man crew and a mounted .50 cal. so the teams wouldn't have to overload themselves with ammo: clear a few houses and return to the vehicle as needed to reload.

Of course it's pretty easy to fight this war from the comfort of my computer chair.
 
A way in which this war is different is that many shootings take place at very close range (inside a room) and there is also concern about hitting innocent bystanders due to overpenetration, making it in some ways more like a law enforcement operation. I don't think anyone would dispute that a .308 is going to have much more penetration in flesh or shabby building materials than even a green-tip .223.
 
While I'm just one guy, I'm in the 4/5ths. I LIKE 5.56. And I like M-4's. 5.56 is accurate, light (I can carry a lot) works pretty well and for all practical purposes doesn't recoil.

As for lethality, there's a couple options. The biggest that I know is nobody shoots just one, ever.
 
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