US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war

[Ltlabner]

Doesn't everybody know that any weapons system invented after the Korean war sucks and is no good.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Problem solved.

 

[TexasRifleman]

"The amount of light"????

What am I missing here?

Well they are simply including the soldiers ability to actually hit what he's aiming at with the effectiveness of the round.

That's just stupid.

Using that logic we can say that the .45-70 is useless since if you miss at 10 feet your target doesn't die; therefore you need a better round.

Waste of newspaper space.... I guess this is what happens now that American Idol is over and there's nothing else for them to talk about.

 

[Randy in Arizona]

I read the first few paragraphs and there were too many contradictions for me. like this

Fired at short range, the M855 round is prone to pass through a body like a needle through fabric.

The M4 rifle has a 14.5 inch barrel — too short to create the velocity needed for an M855 bullet to do maximum damage to the body.

So the bullet is going too fast AND too slow to do any damage???

Nope not too fast - slow enough that wounding is minimized.

Think of a knitting needle stab wound versus the bullet impact transforming tissue into strawberry jam.

Slight change of topic - - -

The M855 (M4) fired bullet is 62 grains at 2790 FPS, the M80 (M14) is 146 grains at 2756 FPS, so no velocity superiority can be claimed.
The mass of the M14 bullet is over twice that of the M4 at the muzzle and does not lose velocity as fast.
The cross sectional area of the M14 bullet 0.0745 In Sq (.308) is almost twice the area of the M4 0.0394 In Sq (.224) so the hole is twice as big.

So 2x the weight, 2X the area - - much better terminal ballistics.

 

[Hammer-52]

6.8 Spc

Hey, isn't this the reason the SOF folks had the 6.8 SPC developed?

 

[BlackJackal]

Just drop your m4 for an ak-47.. problem solved?

 

[Leif Runenritzer]

It has been brought up here that much of the world doesn't use .30 cal. battle rifles, and that such rifles are hard to control fully-automatically. I'm not siding one way or the other in any debate here, but the riflemen of our military don't fire on full-automatic, AFAIK. Maybe they do when falling back, but is full-automatic needed for that? Do other countries who use 5.56 do the same?

 

[SN13]

The M14 isn't THAT bad in FA... although the M16 is much easier to control.

That being said, I'd take the 7.62x39 over the 5.56x45 for anything under 200yrds.

Of course a 12ga with 3" 000 buck or slugs is even better!

 

[Army]

Everybody I shot, fell down dead with no complaints about bullet or weapon performance.

 

[makarovnik]

The M4 and M16 are fine weapons for urban combat, that's why police use them. The 9mm handgun is a different story. That should be replaced by a .40, .45 or a 10mm. Now if you're talking about sniping thru concrete walls then the .50 cal or heavy sniper weapons the Marines are using seem to work fine.

I do hear some soldiers and marines would rather use AK47's because the bullets are heavier but I hear far more complaints about the M9 pistols.

Since this is not a "declared war" Geneva Convention rules don't apply so we can use hollowpoints if we choose correct?

 

[buzz_knox]

The principal wounding effect of the 5.56 is from the round fragmenting at or around the cannelure. That requires sufficient velocity for the round to break up when it begins yawing. The lower velocity provided of the M4 barrel, cobmined with the M855 round, reduces the range at which that can occur, compared to the 20 inch barrel of the M16A2-A4.

The discussion about Somalia omits that there are eyewitness reports of Somalis taking multiple hits from M60s and still going. The 7.62 round doesn't work well 100% of the time either.

The active duty shooters (and their instructors) I've talked to are of one mind when it came to caliber: they didn't care and didn't have a problem with the 5.56. They were getting the hits and the kills.

 

[alsaqr]

The discussion about Somalia omits that there are eyewitness reports of Somalis taking multiple hits from M60s and still going. The 7.62 round doesn't work well 100% of the time either.

Exactly. The US 7.62mm NATO ball round is not very effective at all; especially when compared to the German 7.62mm NATO ball round.


http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/Zielwirkung/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html

 

[kd7nqb]

It seems to me that the military is large enough to have multiple "standard" weapons. Depending on unit and mission. Some guys get AR's in .308 some guys get .223 maybe even some with SCAR'S in 7.62x39 the quantities will still be large enough to keep prices down. Your weapon fits your mission.

Also the 4/5th stat might be misleading, were these ALL combat troops or did the support guys get a say? DONT GET ME WRONG ALL SERVICEMEN ARE TO BE RESPECTED, BUT SOME HAVE MORE COMBAT EXPERIENCE THAN OTHERS.

Finally, isn't this essentially a caliber war rehashed one more time?

 

[Malodorousroadkill]

I've talked to one MP who returned from the sandbox. He had several gripes about the m9 and m4. One of the biggest was reliability, and how much cleaning had to be done to keep them working. He often said he was envious of how the AK-47 pattern guns worked so much better in the climate. Next he was more than a bit unsatisfied with the range on the m4. He simply said that there were too many times where they could have used a bit more accurate range out of their rifles to get the job done the best. At close range he said they rocked, as long as they worked. Lastly, he said that prisoners just weren't impressed enough with the m9. He said they'd run from an MP with a drawn pistol, but they wouldn't run from one with a rifle.

 

[zulu6]

I love the comment: "A change in expectations is needed more than a change in gear, said Col. Robert Radcliffe".

In other words, whats needed here is not a better performing bullet but rather a change in how well you think your current bullet will work. Its not going to perform all that well but we are not going to change anything so just stop thinking that it does and you wont be disappointed.