Use a rail mounted flashlight on your pistol?

[Averageman]

I have to ask..
Why not get an alarm, hook the security lights inside and out side to the alarm? If you think light helps (and I do) why not a premeptive strike and light up the whole place with the alarm?
Everybody wants a pistol/shotgun/rifle with a light..why not light the whole house which will deter most burglars immeadiatly?
I see the purpose and the application, but sometimes I wonder if it isnt an excuse to buy more guns and gear and not to deter or stop a crime in progress.
In my opinion if you are counting on screwing around with a flashlight in the dark then you have lost already.
1)Got an alarm?
2)Lights hooked to the alarm?
3)Dog ?
4)Secure locks on every door inside and out with solid doors?
5)A safe room or a secure retreat to a safer room?
6)A first aid kit?
7) Cell Phone and Land line?
8) Training in First aide?
9) Know your legal responcabilites before you discharge that firearm, know how to answer (or more importantly NOT) questions after you've shoot that burglar?
10) Are the Wife and kids trained to react to the threat, answer LEO questions after the attack?
I just dont see the pistol with a flashlight attatched as one of my top ten priorites.
I could do alot of the same things listed above for the very same or nearly the money spent and that would go alot further protecting my home and family.

 

[psyopspec]

Mr. Dodson,

To respond to your post, neither Ben nor I advocate shooting at an unidentified target. Far from it: The laws of firearms handling still applies in serious situations if one wishes to apply violence in a controlled manner. This includes not pointing the weapon at anything you don't want to destroy. If you believe verbal challenges are the way to go, I have no problem with that.

You must also remember that different people live in different situations. I don't have a house full of kids, so if I wake up to the sound of someone breaking down my door or moving about my place at 3AM, and SWMBO is in bed next to me, by process of elimination there's someone in my house who shouldn't be. No where did I say or would I recommend shooting someone without knowing if they are a threat. Lights are one way of doing this. Verbal challenges are another. Still another, if there is some ambient light and you are concealed from view, is to observe their hands and demeanor to see if they are armed or present a threat.

That said, if all alternatives are exhausted and it comes down to shooting to stop a threat to self or loved ones, I want it to be swift, I want to come out on top, and like Mr. Cooper said, I want it to be over before they know what happened.

Why not get an alarm, hook the security lights inside and out side to the alarm? If you think light helps (and I do) why not a premeptive strike and light up the whole place with the alarm?
Everybody wants a pistol/shotgun/rifle with a light..why not light the whole house which will deter most burglars immeadiatly?

Because the entire point of a handheld or weapon-mounted light is that it points where you want it to and illuminates what you want it to. It can be controlled. When it's not on, the defender (homeowner) has the advantage as know one will know their way around the house like him or her. IMO, almost everything on your list is great, and ought to be striven for by most home owners, but not everyone is in a position to make drastic changes to their dwelling (APT renters, for example), nor will everyone have the finances to do so.

 

[Averageman]

Because the entire point of a handheld or weapon-mounted light is that it points where you want it to and illuminates what you want it to. It can be controlled. When it's not on, the defender (homeowner) has the advantage as know one will know their way around the house like him or her. IMO, almost everything on your list is great, and ought to be striven for by most home owners, but not everyone is in a position to make drastic changes to their dwelling (APT renters, for example), nor will everyone have the finances to do so.
And my point is if you have the alarm going, the dog barking, the lights on inside and outside the house, what burglar will stay in the house? He wont, not a professional or even a scared amature. Burglary is a balance of time equals money versus the risk of being shot or arrested. The risk of being shot and or caught over rides the resulting possible pay off in cash. Even a desperate crackhead knows going through withdrawls in the county lock up isnt worth staying for what he can grab and run with before he is shot and or caught.
I would also submit that anyone who can spend the money for a new gun, a light and ammo could save the money and invest it in purchasing an alarm system and many of those other nine items I listed and be better protected. If you live in an apartment, save the money and get one with a security system in the lease.
I am not anti gun, anti light on a gun or anything even close. I like to think of myself as a realist. Anyone who thinks that a $2000.00 gun and a $200.00 light makes themselves equal to a scared burglar who may be armed and waiting for you in the dark isnt being real.
Not many people speak of any professional training or experiance, just the gun and light. I would submit to you that those people would be better armed and safe by staying in there room behind cover and concealment and announcing "The Police are on there way, the alarm is connected to the Police Department and I have called 911 and they are on there way." Stay where you are at with your handy 12 gauge and wait and stay on the line with your 911 operator.
I can only speak from my experiance, most people are not being well served by thinking a weapon makes them qualified to do these tasks.

 

[psyopspec]

$2200.00 for handgun and light is quite exorbitant. Even if we consider that figure as being representative of the cost of a typical home defense setup (it's not), it still would not come close to covering a monitored alarm system and dog (with food, trips to the vet, licenses, etc), to say nothing of a safe room.

ETA: I want to reiterate that I'm not debating the utility of your suggestions, only saying that not all peoples' circumstances will allow for some or most of what you recommend.

 

[benEzra]

Not all home invaders are merely burglars. Mere burglars often try to avoid occupied homes to start with, as they'll get a better haul from an unoccupied home anyway (more time, more ability to use noisy methods to obtain hard-to-get valuables, less worries about going where the real valuables are, e.g. the bedroom). Also, while staying put is nice, my kids are across the hall, so I can't just hole up in my room. If I have to cover the hallway, a light is very helpful, as the other end of the hall can be pitch black, and the hall lights would light me up more than they'd light up someone at the other end.

FWIW, I've never seen a $200 light on a $2000 gun in person. I have a $70 light and my pistol cost $800 ~12 years ago, so if you pro-rate that over 144 months it works out to about $6/mo. And we do have an alarm system as well.

I do agree on the inadvisability of trying to clear the house knowing an intruder is in there; that's not really why I have a light. If I think there is a reasonable probability that an intruder is in the house, I'll take a position on the bedroom end of our hallway and stay put while the police come (and the light would be a big help there). And, if I merely hear a little noise that was probably the cat, the alarm isn't showing anything, but I really don't want to just go to sleep without making certain, then I'm certainly not going to call the police for that; I'll go check it out, and the light is handy there as well.

The other thing is, you have no idea how useful a 70+ lumen pocket light with a 9-hour runtime can be until you own one. I purchased mine exclusively as a tactical light, but now I find myself using it for everything from checking the attic for leaky sections, to carrying it when I go running at night (off unless I need it), to directing traffic at night when my issued D-cell incandescent flashlight went kaput; I just yanked the red cone off the dead light, slapped it over the end of my pocket light, and kept on doing what I was doing. They really are way ahead of what you can get at Wal-Mart or Target.

 

[9MMare]

I learn alot from these threads. I'll check out the older one too.

Because of my living situation, NO ONE* should be in my house at nite except me and my dogs. I do believe in a verbal warning for them to ID themselves. It keeps me from having to go out into the main living area....if that person cannot reply with something reassuring, they are considered a threat. I remain in my safe room (bedroom) with phones, tactical light not mounted on 9mm, calling 911 and prepared to shoot if that person(s) comes back there. I have 1 area of concealment and 1 of true cover back there.

I do have renters on the property. They are also armed and have access to my house (rural area). We have discussed this and they will ID themselves if they need assistance in the nite.


*When I do have guests, like my parents, they are informed of the plan....they identify themselves if asked and then retreat to/remain in their bedroom while I deal with threat. My dogs will be in with me or roaming the house and dont bark at guests.

 

[Erik]

Another way of thinking about the equation is, when the need for light and shooting or manipulation things (weapon, door, phone, loved one, etc) merge, which is most efficient? The answer is weapon with a dedicated light mounted to it.

How much more efficient? How much better are you at shooting with both hands versus one? With both hands versus your favorite flashlight technique? How much better are you at manipulating something with one hand unencumbered versus one hand encumbered? Stash your light to free up both hands? How much less efficient is that versus not having to do so, and then correct back to being able to use the light? And so on. Be honest with yourselves.

 

[sgt gray]

What I don't understand is that almost everyone on this thread is talking about using offensive tactics, isn't this really about maintaining your defensive position. When someone breaks into your home or is on your property at night it is most definitely a life or death situation, and you are the one being offended, so think of the best way to defend yourself. Yeah, the alarms, dogs barking, and all the noise the offender is making is to your advantage. Think of it from their perspective, what if they don't care about going to jail. Several of you are saying that asking who is there is the way to go. At a maximum the only ground you should cover is to get between the burglar and your family, AND STAY THERE, especially if the burglar hasn't caught on to your movements. Have your spouse call 911, and wait. Whats more important, your property? or maybe you and your family's lives? I know that if I was a burglar I would have a gun and a light, maybe a gun with a mounted light. So ask this question, What if the burglar has the same gun, the same light, happens to be someone that knows the layout of my home, then what advantage do you have if any? You in a strong defensive position with both cover and concealment and the BG has no clue where you are. The burglar could also have extensive tactical training, what if he was prior swat or military. Its not like they are exempt from becoming criminals. Me, personally, I am going to sit tight in a strong def. position and wait for them to come to me. I will have a light of any kind pointed in THE SAME direction as my gun so that immediately after i ID the intruder I can take a shot and hopefully my position will have given me the few fractions of a second of surprise that I need to SURVIVE the situation. You will almost always have an advantage if you are already aimed in on a single accessible entry way to your position. And if no one shows up, hey the cops are on the way, they can risk their own life searching for the burglar. Its about survival, you have to be selfish and take care of you and your family. The most important aspect of HD is minimizing you and your family's risk, the less risk the higher the chance of survival. That was a little off track from the subject of the thread so to get back on point. I will just refer to the problem that has been mentioned about using a pistol mounted light being pointed at a friend or family member. YOU have total control of your weapon. If you point it at someone you still need to determine what your target is before you shoot, that is one of the most basic fundamentals of markmanship. If you can't do that then you probably shouldn't even own a gun.

 

[9MMare]

Exactly Sgt Gray....and this was much of what I learned reading this and a similar thread here on THR. (As I mentioned just above in my previous post).

That is why these discussions are so helpful. Many sides of the issue were covered and my current strategy solidified. I did however, learn that there's no reason to have both rail-mounted and hand-held lites (IMO).

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I used to have a Ruger P95 with a Streamligh LED/laser combo on it. I found the light to be much more usefull than the laser, and I practiced a few times using it. I suggest it on a HOME DEFENSE handgun/rifle/shotgun. Mainly because most stories I have ever heard regarding "It happened to me" happened at night. First objective is to see. Otherwise you don't know who you are shooting.

 

[HOV]

I tried practicing with my small, very bright handheld flashlight (Fenix TK10) and Glock 26 at the range the other day. It was my first time shooting with a flashlight in one hand and a pistol in the other - here are my lessons learned:

1. I can only comfortably use the light and pistol when they are side by side. For me, the comfortable position is both hands thrust forward, light in left hand with a thumb forward position, pistol in right hand. Left hand provides some support for the pistol by keeping hands together.

2. It's damn hard to keep the light shining in the same direction as the pistol is pointing.

3. My groupings are way worse using a hand held flashlight as opposed to just shooting one-handed. Heck, my off-hand single hand groups are better.

4. My flashlight's button is in the wrong place. With my hand position, I need an on/off switch on the body of the flashlight near the aperture, like a Maglite.

5. A weapon-mounted light is a very good idea, as I simply will lack the dexterity to juggle both items and deal with a dude trying to kill me at the same time.

Both items together seem like a good option.

 

[smoothdraw]

Basic Gun Laws.

1.) Know what you are shooting and what's behind it. You need a flaslight.
2.) You do not point a gun you are not willing to destroy. You need a flashlight not mounted on your gun.
3.) Rail mounted light is essential for our LE and Military but for self defense the more important thing is that you are trained to use your weapon with only your strong hand or weakhand and holding a light in your other hand. This is what we train a lot in IDPA. And there's a lot of ways to hold a light with a handgun.
Personally, my home defense weapons have lights but I always have a flashlight in my emergency pouch with extra mags, cell phone and spare keys to house and car. Weapon mounted light is not a dealbreaker for me.

 

[NCPatrolAR]

2.) You do not point a gun you are not willing to destroy. You need a flashlight not mounted on your gun.

When using a weapon-mounted light, you dont have to have the weapon pointed directly at what you are trying to identify. You use the spill of the light to do the illuminating; not the center of the beam.

 

[smoothdraw]

When using a weapon-mounted light, you dont have to have the weapon pointed directly at what you are trying to identify. You use the spill of the light to do the illuminating; not the center of the beam.

When using a weapon-mounted light, you dont have to have the weapon pointed directly at what you are trying to identify. You use the spill of the light to do the illuminating; not the center of the beam.

Can do that but in high stress situation you have the tendency to point the light where you really intended to search or identify. Also with the tactical lights that we have, the beamwidth of the light are very narrow.

 

[Avenger29]

2.) You do not point a gun you are not willing to destroy. You need a flashlight not mounted on your gun.
3.) Rail mounted light is essential for our LE and Military but for self defense the more important thing is that you are trained to use your weapon with only your strong hand or weakhand and holding a light in your other hand. This is what we train a lot in IDPA. And there's a lot of ways to hold a light with a handgun.

How are LEOs and the .mil exempt from point #2? Please, do tell.

I don't care how you/ya'll do it in IDPA, I'm putting lights on my guns. Especially my longguns, because I need two hands to run one of those. And then I'll be assured that the light is actually there and available when I grab the gun...

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

1.) Know what you are shooting and what's behind it. You need a flaslight.
2.) You do not point a gun you are not willing to destroy. You need a flashlight not mounted on your gun.
3.) Rail mounted light is essential for our LE and Military but for self defense the more important thing is that you are trained to use your weapon with only your strong hand or weakhand and holding a light in your other hand. This is what we train a lot in IDPA. And there's a lot of ways to hold a light with a handgun.

I've cleared houses both with and without weapon-mounted lights. I have no intention of doing so without a weapon-mounted light ever again, if I can help it.

IDPA has about as much to do with real life as paintball.

 

[mcdonl]

This thread comes up every few weeks. And for some reason, it only dawns on maybe 10% of the posters that you can use both. Seriously. Use the handheld when it makes more sense, and the mounted when that makes more sense. Why the hell would anyone limit themselves to less options?

Money and firearms selection. If I had enough guns to have one with a rail mounted light to keep in my nightstand then I would. As it is though, I carry at home and when I go to bed the gun goes in the same drawer as my light. Happens to be a .357 revolver.

If I could though, I would have a pistol with a mounted light in the drawer and a seperate flashlight.

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that everyone with a mounted light has a seperate handheld too right?

 

[mcdonl]

IDPA has about as much to do with real life as paintball.

Really?

 

[smoothdraw]

I've cleared houses both with and without weapon-mounted lights. I have no intention of doing so without a weapon-mounted light ever again, if I can help it.

IDPA has about as much to do with real life as paintball.

IDPA is teaching us safety, trigger finger discipline.
IDPA teach us to use handgun using only strong or weak hand.
IDPA teach us how to use handgun and flashlight together
IDPA teach us to do fast emergency and retention reloads.
IDPA teaches us to shoot while moving
IDPA teaches us to use cover which might save our life
IDPA is a game not a Tactics training. You need professional training if you really want to learn combat mindset and full tactical knowledge or join law enforcement. For civilians IDPA and USPSA in that matter provide civilians with trigger time and practice much better than just going to shooting range and shooting with a static target, without stress, without a need for doing ultra fast reload.

You could choose to game IDPA/treat it as paintball as you say it is or you could choose to really learn and get a lot of practice from it. We have a lot of LEO shooting with us and they appreciate the trigger time and tactics review they are getting from IDPA.

Again consider not being so dependent on your defensive handgun with rail lights. Always have a separate flashlight.

If you are a member of SWAT team then you need to have lights on all of your weapons and you could point your lights and guns with your suspected targets.

Again fellow lovers of defensive weapons
1.) Guns are always loaded
2.) Do not put your finger on trigger until your target is in front of your sight
3.) Do not point the gun on anything you are not willing to destroy
4.) Know your target and what is behind it.

 

[smoothdraw]

as a Low Light Instructor i have to ask why people haven't thought about two lighting systems: (1) on the pistol and (2) in your support side hand? that allows you to work with two lights instead of one.

yes as others have said you can turn them off when you need to. the hand held light is used when you do not want to point a loaded weapon at something that you haven't identified as a threat necessarily, or want to "probe" around a corner to see if you can incite a response from an armed intruder. also, the hand held light can be held away from your body so if someone shoots towards the light you have increased distance from where the bullet would strike.

light is to your advantage but don't always leave them on. we teach to momentarily "flutter" the light, turn it off, then move, then flutter again, then move, etc. you should have tactical advantage in your own house anyway since you know the layout, such you should be able to work better in the dark than the intruder who is probably very unfamiliar with the layout.

nothing wrong with two good lights. i recommend a good strobing light like a Gladius as well as a good weapon mounted one as well.

when you locate a threat then you can go two-hands on to your pistol and pistol mounted light. you can put the other hand held in your pocket.

Exactly!

 

[smoothdraw]

I tried practicing with my small, very bright handheld flashlight (Fenix TK10) and Glock 26 at the range the other day. It was my first time shooting with a flashlight in one hand and a pistol in the other - here are my lessons learned:

1. I can only comfortably use the light and pistol when they are side by side. For me, the comfortable position is both hands thrust forward, light in left hand with a thumb forward position, pistol in right hand. Left hand provides some support for the pistol by keeping hands together.
That is why we need to practice

2. It's damn hard to keep the light shining in the same direction as the pistol is pointing.
That is why we need to practice

3. My groupings are way worse using a hand held flashlight as opposed to just shooting one-handed. Heck, my off-hand single hand groups are better.
With practice you'll get better

4. My flashlight's button is in the wrong place. With my hand position, I need an on/off switch on the body of the flashlight near the aperture, like a Maglite.
That is why you need a Surefire flashlight and get away from Walmart flashlights

5. A weapon-mounted light is a very good idea, as I simply will lack the dexterity to juggle both items and deal with a dude trying to kill me at the same time.
That is why you need a separate flashlight

Both items together seem like a good option.
I agree

 

[X-Rap]

I have not yet seen anyone mention what happens when the intruder is identified and the scenario doesn't play out in favor of the hero/homeowner.
If an intruder fires and retreats from your presence then do you want a hand held or mounted light?
If you need to gather your family knowing you have an intruder and you need to open doors and have a hand held what do you do with your gun?
I personally see the utility of having both and do, when the dog needs to go out I have a 6P that I grab, If somebody knocks on the door at 3:am or I grab a G22 with M3 rail light, guide rod mounted laser and combination fiber optic and tritium sights.
If I am awaken by a strange noise or the dog barking I take both.(but will drop the 6P in a heartbeat)
The gun may seem like overkill but that's how I bought it so it has become my dedicated house gun.
Many will say you should stay put and call the cops but you will soon become unpopular if you do that every time the dog barks, similar with an alarm using motion sensors if you have animals in the house and wild ones outside. The fact is many folks have to check on things themselves due to remote location and lack of police coverage especially now in times of staffing cuts and patrol budget cuts. (people need to start taking responsibility for themselves again)
For me I like the advantage of a mounted light especially if outdoors and having to move in and out of various buildings using doors and such. If things would escalate from a simple inspection then I would go totally to the gun light to maintain a better grip and control of the gun and to have a better sight picture. Plus aiming a light and a gun at the same time while trying to pick up sights is a PITA especially with stock sights so I would recommend enhancing them for sure.(try using stock sights and a high or side light hold against different back grounds as well as centering your light and gun at the same place)
If I had to have one light I would want it on the gun.

 

[AOK]

Just a couple of my opinons on this thread.....

*I am a big believer in having both a mounted light and a hand held light. Both offer benefits depending on your situation. I think some people would change their minds on weapon mounted lights if they got training and learn how to apply it correctly.

*Some have brought up the fact that an intruder should be a defensive situation rather than an offensive situation. While I agree with this when I am upstairs with my family, I disagree with this if I'm in the basement and my family is on the second floor. It all depends on the situation.

There are many nights my family goes to bed earlier than me so I will go into the basement to get some work done or watch television. If I know there is an intruder in my house between my family and I, you better believe I will be on the offense. That's why I train clearing my house, my family has a game plan that is predictable for me, I have doors set up specific ways and mirrors set up so dangerous angles are less risky when I pie around corners and through doors.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[smoothdraw]

If the intruder is already identified then i will then use my weapons mounted light if i have it. I also can use my handgun on my strong hand and separate flashlight on my weakhand because i trained a lot doing it and i'm comfortable with it.

The issue here is that if you still have to identify you need a separate flashlight. I never ever want to point my weapon to anything i don't want to destroy which includes my family. I hope you do as well.

If i'm already in a fight i will appreciate a weapons mounted light.

If I only have one light, i don't want it mounted on my gun. Or if i only have a weapons light available (which will not happen to me), i will remove it from the gun and use it while identifying and if someone shoots at me and it is not friendly 2 legged animal then i will snap mount my light quickly to my weapon and have my combat conditioning on.

Better really is to have both . And a G2 only cost $37, get one.

Wherever defensive handgun training course you go, Gunsite, Frontsight, LFI etc they will always tell you to have a separate flashlight. Then if you get a SWAT training course with them they will always tell you mount a light in your weapon. So really depends on situation like AOK said. If you are going to room clear your house like SWAT's do then weapons mounted light is the right tool. When your LEO identifies people they use high powered flashlights and have their weapon in a low ready state or hold their gun ready in their holster. We should too have to follow these well proven tactics that when we are identifying people in our house we don't point a gun together with it. The worst thing that could happen is shoot the people that we are trying to protect in the 1st place. And even just pointing a gun to a friend or family should not be acceptable because when it becomes okay with you to do that then you are setting yourself up into a very bad situation plus you are not being a good example. I read from gunsite training survey that from all the gun laws more than 90% violates it by putting their finger on their trigger before they are ready to shoot. And with high stress that a gunfight will bring to us our dexterity will be compromised that makes anything in front of our gun barrel be destroyed easily even they are friendly's.

This will be my last post for this thread. We could agree to disagree and we have choices which makes America great. My apology to other people that i might have offended. I like these discussions because i do learn a lot from this as well. So be safe and always be aware where your muzzle is pointing.

Smoothdraw

 

[Avenger29]

If I only have one light, i don't want it mounted on my gun. Or if i only have a weapons light available (which will not happen to me), i will remove it from the gun and use it while identifying and if someone shoots at me and it is not friendly 2 legged animal then i will snap mount my light quickly to my weapon and have my combat conditioning on.

That just seems completely unrealistic to me. You'll fumble around putting a weapon light back on the weapon (that you should never have removed in the first place) instead of SHOOTING BACK?