Using the wrong balls? (1858 Remington)

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Sam1911

Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
34,961
Location
Central PA
Hi!

Just had something kind of funny happen last night and I wondered if anyone else has done this either accidentally or on purpose.

Myself and BullfrogKen broke out a pair of replica 1858 Remington .44s last night for some old-fashioned plinking. I hadn't shot mine in at least a decade, and that's a shame. They're amazingly accurate and a whole lot of fun!

I dug through one of my old ammo cans of BP gear, I located all the kit to shoot the revolver easily, set it out on the bench, loaded up, and fired off a cylinder full.

Afterward, as I went to reload, I discovered that I'd accidentally grabbed a small handful of .490 round balls instead of the box of .451 balls intended for the gun! I noticed when seating them that they took more effort than I remembered and they cut a mighty impressive "ring" going into the cylinder. :eek:

But they shot just fine, which makes sense. All I was really doing was creating a larger driving band. They printed higher than the .451s which also made perfect sense as they'd be a bit heavier.

I don't have any conicals, but I imagine they'd have printed to about the same spot.

Anyone ever do this before, either on purpose or by accident? What were the results? I'm kind of liking the heavier slug, and it sure seemed the seating ram made a big wad-cutter like meplat forcing them down.

If I was going to hunt with one of these, this might be not a half-bad idea.

Thoughts?
 
Sam,

It's putting a heck of a strain on the loading lever screw, to the point that it might snap. Those oversize balls were whittled down to cylinder size and actually became a somewhat elongated shaped bullet. They can create no harm to your gun other than the possibility of loading lever damage. If I were you, I would load them using a press if I wanted to continue the practice.
 
Yes, you are right, of course. I don't really have much need to do this, but was curious.

Are there good presses on the market for loading cylinders off the gun? Ken has a spare cyl. that came with his and it would make the process a wee bit smoother.
 
Oh...and what is the best trick for keeping caps on? Do I need to find smaller caps, larger nipples, or just keep picking them up off the ground after every shot? :D
 
There are several good presses on the market. A Google search should find them.

Ah, the eternal cap question! The answer is... there is no one answer. You must find a good cap/nipple fit and go with it. Loose caps can contribute to chain fires, so it is in your best interest to find a workable answer for yourself.
 
If caps are too large they can be pinched/squeezed to fit better. It works but isn't always effective enough and can really slow down capping the gun.
#10 Remington caps are worth trying if you can find them.
Dixie Gun Works will usually ship a tin of them without any Hazmat fee.
The sturdiest cylinder loaders are sold by Big Lube Bullets and Black Dawg Cartridges (formerly Powder Inc's loader), which are slightly different versions of a very similar model.

http://www.biglube.com/

http://www.blackdawgecartridge.com/

It sounds like an amazing feat to have been able to ram .490 balls into the chambers. :)
 
Last edited:
Sam,

Pinched caps lead to chain fires. Get caps that fit your nipples and do not listen to cap pinching advice.
 
junkman_01 said:
Pinched caps lead to chain fires. Get caps that fit your nipples and do not listen to cap pinching advice.
Click to expand...

So can having caps fall off the nipples during firing because they're too large.

Squeezing the caps does work "in a pinch!". ;)
 
Last edited:
pinch

I have always pinched my caps. A friend of mine had a tight fitting one go off one time. Burnt his right thumb, lost three fingers and part of the thumb on his left hand. Yes go ahead and use tight fitting caps It's O.K.
 
What's with the two hands? These are HAND guns not HANDS guns! My 12 year old daughter says if it takes two hands to hold it up and shoot it,
you need to get a lighter gun.
 
What's with the two hands? These are HAND guns not HANDS guns! My 12 year old daughter says if it takes two hands to hold it up and shoot it,
you need to get a lighter gun.
Click to expand...
:scrutiny:

Every day I try and find identify the silliest things I've heard that day. Well, I just found my winner! :D

Thanks for the advice though. If I ever get into a dual I'll remember to use the olde tyme stance and duelist grip.
 
To answer your original question, which nobody has yet, yes, I've used .490 balls in two different .44 bp revolvers, and both grouped just slightly higher than .457's/.454's (I have no guns that like .451's). The guns were a Walker and an 1860 Army.

Interestingly the Walker grouped just slightly higher; the 1860 group was significantly higher - this was several years ago so I don't recall the exact amounts. Given that piece of information, I attribute the higher grouping to the greater recoil of the more massive projectile; the 1860 Army is, of course, quite a bit lighter than the Walker and more subject to the higher recoil, thus it groups higher.

I routinely use soft cast pure lead .490 balls to slug my .44 revolver barrels and chambers; they aren't all that much more difficult to load than .457's.
 
Yes, I was totally surprised at how accurate these cap-and-ball revolvers are. Scary accurate. And I had no clue what I was doing.


Didn't bother finely weighing the charges. Seated until it felt about right. The things were quite more tolerant of inconsistency than anything modern.


By the way, what does everyone like for wads under the balls of these guns? I could find plenty of rifle muzzle-loader wadding at the local shop. Pistol wadding, not so much.
 
Finding one that does both .36 and .44 cylinder presses is rare. The Cabela's version only does .44
s
Those you showed look first cabin!
Thanx
ZVP
 
Wads are optional with revolvers, but they can help to seal off the powder better from lube contamination or the elements, and they can also carry lube.
Commercial wads are often made of dense felt "bore buttons" that are either wet lubed, dry lubed or not lubed at all.
There are also vegetable fiber wads that are made out of flexible gasket type material that are sold in different thicknesses at Cabela's.
Then some folks make or buy their own punches to punch out their own wads. The raw materials are available from several sources.

Buffalo Arms carries most everything, look under wads in the left hand column:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/default.aspx

Durofelt is the largest manufacturer of the high density felt that's used for black powder shooting:

http://www.durofelt.com/image_26.html
 
Oversized bullets will group higher, NOT because they are heavier (they should go down,if it were the case), but because they are more tightly fitted. Then the pressure required to move them is higher (the explosion is in a more advanced state) and the energy will be higher to=>the group is higher on the target.
 
That theory is incorrect. They group higher because they are heavier and thus create more recoil. Recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts to move. A heavier bullet is in the barrel longer, so the muzzle has a longer interval to rise. The more it rises the higher the bullet impacts. This is not unique to muzzle loading, or handguns, but to all hand held guns.
 
Yes. Junkman is correct. I understand the principle well as it is the same thing that happens in my 629 when switching from 200 gr. to 300 gr. projectiles.

You can't make a case that they're "more tightly fitted" if you're shaving a full-circumfrence ring off seating BOTH balls in the bore. You could say that the driving band is wider, thus presenting more friction, but that won't have as much of an impact as the F=ma reason junkman explained.
 
Oh... Really? Put the gun on a test bench (recoil neutralized), and check by yourself.
 
Oh... Really? Put the gun on a test bench (recoil neutralized), and check by yourself.
Click to expand...
Ah, yes. Remove the REASON that heaver projectiles group higher ('recoil neutralized') and THEN you'll be right. So, since you admit that you have to remove recoil you must be admitting that I, junkman 01 and Sam1911 are correct after all, yes?

Oh, by the way, if you remove recoil you're still wrong. Two objects of different mass in the same gravitational field fall at the same rate - the rate of acceleration of the field times the amount of time they have been falling: V=A*T. And the distance they fall in a given period of time is also only a matter of the velocity times the amount of time: S=V*T. Mass is only a factor in the magnitude of the force when the objects hit the ground, not the rate at which they fall.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

TwangBanger
  • Locked
.445 round balls in Pietta 1858 Remington New Army
2 3 4 5
Replies
110
Views
9K
mustanger98
M
W
  • Locked
Saturday 1858 Remington Target Shooting Results
Replies
22
Views
967
arcticap
arcticap
N
  • Locked
Ball Stuck in 1858 Remington Bore
2
Replies
26
Views
2K
44 Dave
44 Dave
M
  • Locked
Bore size vs cylinder size.
Replies
7
Views
5K
rifle
R
J
  • Locked
bullet mold size for 1858 remington ?
Replies
4
Views
2K
Plastic Cowboy
P
Back
Top