I recently purchased a S&W model 686 revolver. Last week I purchased some Winchester 110 gn 357 mag ammo and shot about 14 rounds. Later on while reading through the instruction manual that came with the 686, I noticed on page 12 it stated "caution: do not use magnum loadings with bullet weights of less than 120 grains. This will reduce the possibility of premature erosion in titaniaum alloy cylinders". Wanting to be cautious, I sent off an e mail to S&W customer service asking if this applied to my 686. However, after sending the e mail, I realized that the information on that page of the manual pertains to Ti, Sc & PD series revolvers which I don't believe applies to the 686. I felt that I made a mistake sending that e mail. However, even though I clearly stated in the e mail that this is a model 686, the S&W support agent replied back "Dear Customer, This ammo will void your warranty. If further assistance is required please reply accordingly." I replied back with a clarification e mail but have not received a response yet. My question is will this ammo harm the stainless steel cylinder of the 686 or did the S&W support agent not read the part where I stated that it was a 686? Any comments will be appreciated.
Using Winchester 110 gn 357 mag ammo in 686 stainless steel revolver.
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tipoc
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The use of the ammo will not harm your particular gun as your gun is a 686 and is stainless. This is exactly what the manual stated.
Your email confused the reception person (or whoever it was) that is responsible for replying to emails, and as a result they sent back a confused reply. No one that knows anything, or who had read the manual, would ask if a 110 gr. 357 load would damage a stainless or carbon steel L frame S&W, so when your email arrived they assumed you were asking about the light weight alloy and titanium framed guns. Their answer was based on that.
S&W likely receives a large volume of emails and phone calls daily. They may have only a couple of people reply to these. They may not read them all as carefully as they ought to. Just as you did not read the manual as carefully as you ought to have. The result was some temporary confusion.
Trust me no one at S&W is sitting around worrying about your email. Forget about it and move on.
tipoc
Your email confused the reception person (or whoever it was) that is responsible for replying to emails, and as a result they sent back a confused reply. No one that knows anything, or who had read the manual, would ask if a 110 gr. 357 load would damage a stainless or carbon steel L frame S&W, so when your email arrived they assumed you were asking about the light weight alloy and titanium framed guns. Their answer was based on that.
S&W likely receives a large volume of emails and phone calls daily. They may have only a couple of people reply to these. They may not read them all as carefully as they ought to. Just as you did not read the manual as carefully as you ought to have. The result was some temporary confusion.
Trust me no one at S&W is sitting around worrying about your email. Forget about it and move on.
tipoc
dfariswheel
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Since your 686 has a stainless cylinder that is not a danger for you.
However, the very light, very hot 125 and 110 grain bullet loads are notorious for gas cutting the top strap and eroding the barrels forcing cone in all revolvers, especially the 110 grain.
The problem is the light, short bullets allow considerable super-heated gas and highly abrasive burning powder to etch or gas cut a groove in the top strap just above the barrel, and etch the forcing cone prematurely.
To maintain the service life of your gun, I'd recommend very limited use of the 110 ammo, and to limit the use of the 125 grain.
What some people do with revolvers is to do most shooting with less punishing ammo, and only do very limited practicing with the hot stuff. Load it for carry or defense use.
There's plenty of great Magnum loads in ammo with slightly heavier bullets, such as the 135 grain loads some makers are making.
Much use of the 110 grain hot loads will affect the life of your revolver.
Shooting a box or so won't ruin the gun, but it's best to choose a heavier bullet load for extended use.
However, the very light, very hot 125 and 110 grain bullet loads are notorious for gas cutting the top strap and eroding the barrels forcing cone in all revolvers, especially the 110 grain.
The problem is the light, short bullets allow considerable super-heated gas and highly abrasive burning powder to etch or gas cut a groove in the top strap just above the barrel, and etch the forcing cone prematurely.
To maintain the service life of your gun, I'd recommend very limited use of the 110 ammo, and to limit the use of the 125 grain.
What some people do with revolvers is to do most shooting with less punishing ammo, and only do very limited practicing with the hot stuff. Load it for carry or defense use.
There's plenty of great Magnum loads in ammo with slightly heavier bullets, such as the 135 grain loads some makers are making.
Much use of the 110 grain hot loads will affect the life of your revolver.
Shooting a box or so won't ruin the gun, but it's best to choose a heavier bullet load for extended use.
The muzzle velocity isn't the problem here. It is because the bullet jumps across the gap sooner while the gases are expanding rapidly and the powder grains act as an abrasive while the hot gases act like an oxy-acetylene cutting torch. Mo flash - mo damage. The gases are expanding while pushing the bullet down the bore AND leaking at the cyl. gap. Stick with standard weight and velocity loads for most of your shooting and the gun will have a longer life. In my experience. Besides, light weight high velocity ammo is for girls.
Drail said:
I'm well aware of why gas cutting occurs, but the amount of gas produced and the velocity of the gas are a function of how much powder is in the shell and the burn rate of that powder, both of which are directly correlated to velocity. So if someone is going to state "the very light, very hot 125 and 110 grain bullet loads are notorious for gas cutting" they should define "very hot" since not all 125gr loads have the same muzzle velocity.
evan price
Member
Very hot = not standard velocity
Pretty obvious.
Pretty obvious.
I want to thank everyone who replied to my question. Like Tipoc suggested, by not reading the instruction manual carefully enough I shot myself in the foot. No pun intended. However, there are some members who replied that continued use of this ammo could still be harmful to this 686 as well as other revolvers. Unfortunately, I just purchased 10 boxes of this ammo and I'm now hesitant to use it when I go to the range. My question now is why don't the manufacturers of both the ammo and the revolvers state this in their product information and manuals? I'm a new shooter and still have alot to learn.
X-Rap
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Keep your 10 boxes and buy ten more 38 spcl. 158 gr wad cutters at a substantial savings.
Shoot a few cylinders of the hot stuff when you are finishing up at the range and call it good.
I would also add that you should safely practice at home at a minimum 100 to 1 dry fire exercises to your live range fires.
Shoot a few cylinders of the hot stuff when you are finishing up at the range and call it good.
I would also add that you should safely practice at home at a minimum 100 to 1 dry fire exercises to your live range fires.
SKL said:
Good question.
S&W states ...
"You are responsible for selecting ammunition that meets industry standards and is appropriate for this firearm. Use ONLY commercially manufactured ammunition with internal ballistic pressures which are in strict accordance with the specifications of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute. NEVER use non-standard, reloaded, or "handloaded" ammunition which has not been subjected to internal ballistic pressure testing."
For their modern revolvers in the AMMUNITION SELECTION FOR Ti, Sc & PD
Series REVOLVERS S&W states ...
"Do not use Magnum loadings with bullet weights of less than 120
grains - This will reduce the possibility of premature erosion in
titanium alloy cylinders."
You purchased ammunition that meets industry standards and your revolver doesn't have a Ti cylinder so what's the problem? The Winchester 110gr stuff isn't exactly blistering at 1,295 fps and I imagine it's quite pleasant to shoot. It's very unlikely you will do any damage to the cylinder, cylinder throats or forcing cone of your 686 with ten boxes of the stuff or even fifty boxes.
7mmb
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Your 686 can shoot the Winchester 110 loads with no problems. This load is also not loaded to maximum velocity potential for the 110 grain bullet. It yields lower velocity than most 125 grain loads. It is actually a light magnum loading. Don't hesitate to shoot it.
sidheshooter
Member
Not much to add except that I've shot a fair amount of WWB 110 gr .357 (because it was cheap) out of my 65-3 K-frame over the years, and it's still fine.
110 is hot by .38 standard, but pales next to the classic 125 sjhp loads by Fed and Rem, among others.
In a 686, I wouldn't sweat it. If you wear out that revolver, you're shooting enough to warrant a replacement.
110 is hot by .38 standard, but pales next to the classic 125 sjhp loads by Fed and Rem, among others.
In a 686, I wouldn't sweat it. If you wear out that revolver, you're shooting enough to warrant a replacement.
351 WINCHESTER
Member
I have shot the Winchester 110 jhp and found them to be very anemic, especially when compared to the 125 jhp and sp. I would think you would break the bank to shoot enough of the 110 to do any measurable harm to a quality revolver, including a k frame. Flame cutting of the top strap is exaggerated imho as it is usually self limiting and not a real issue. In the .357 max it was an issue.
Once again I want to thank everone for their replies. I value all the information that I've received. I believe that I'll dedicate all the Winchester 110 gn ammo for use in my Ruger LCR 357 because due to it's smaller size and lighter weight, recoil with the heavier 158 gn weight ammo is quite heavy (for me). The recoil with the 110 gn Winchester seems a little more manageable. Thanks again
Update, I've so far shot about 200 rds of the Winchester 357 mag 110 gn ammo through my Ruger LCR 357 and see no signs of flame cutting yet. I looked at it with a 5X magnifier and the top strap still appears unaffected.
Update
So far I've shot about 200 rds of the Winchester 357 mag 110 gn 1295 velocity ammo thru my Ruger 357 LCR and have seen no signs of flame cutting. I looked at the top strap through a 5X magnifier and the top strap so far seems unaffected. I guess only time will tell.
So far I've shot about 200 rds of the Winchester 357 mag 110 gn 1295 velocity ammo thru my Ruger 357 LCR and have seen no signs of flame cutting. I looked at the top strap through a 5X magnifier and the top strap so far seems unaffected. I guess only time will tell.
funnelcake
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Odd that Smith states "bullet weights less than 120-grains". That kind of implies any 125gr. load is OK. Hot (read normal) to really hot loads are far more common in 125gr. vs. anything less.
Most of the damage I've seen/ read about has been from 125's starting @ ~1400fps and going up.
Funnel
Most of the damage I've seen/ read about has been from 125's starting @ ~1400fps and going up.
Funnel
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BSA1
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Ditto posts 14 & 16 . The L Frame is designed especially for use with 357 Magnum cartridges. S&W beefed up the barrel, forcing cone and frame to withstand thousands of magnum loads. You will most likely wear out before the gun will.
armsmaster270
Member
My Sacramento P.D. Mod 15 has had a high number of Federal +P+ 110gr JHP's (issue duty ammo) There is Very minor flame cutting.
Yep, definitely not "hot".
The lighter bullets use more powder. This subjects everything to more heat and abrasion. If you torch something for 1 second at a time for 100 times, and then torch something for 1.1 seconds 100 times, guess which will sustain more damage.
That is in addition to what dfariswheel posted.
Walkalong said:
You can't make such a sweeping generalization about charge weight or burn rate. I can tell you for a fact that Remington's .357 Mag 110gr SJHP uses less than half the powder compared to the .357 Mag 125gr SJHP. If you assume a constant heat source in your torching analogy then it's probably a no brainer, but propellants are way more complicated. Also, if 1.1 seconds isn't enough time to do damage then the point is moot.
True. 1.0 and 1.1 was a random number to make a point, but I believe the point stands, that the more powder you burn the sooner the damage can occur, and most lighter bullets use more powder than heavier bullets, at least in reloading with canister powders.
No doubt, and I know you know what you are talking about with factory ammo.
No doubt, and I know you know what you are talking about with factory ammo.
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