USPSA scoring
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Hk Dan said:
You need to do some reading. Muscle memory isn't some vague concept. It's a well proven physiological phenomenon and the reason that so many can bang out utter drivel on their keyboards without looking at the keys.
Here's a link to an explanation of that silly thing called muscle memory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory
Muscle memory has been used synonymously with motor learning, which is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems. Examples of muscle memory are found in many everyday activities that become automatic and improve with practice, such as riding a bicycle, typing on a keyboard, playing a melody or phrase on a musical instrument, playing video games,[1] or performing different algorithms for a puzzle cube.
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Jon_Snow
Member
Some people shoot USPSA to get better at USPSA, others do it to get better at defensive shooting. It's your choice which you want to be, there is no wrong answer. I think that it's unlikely you'll be carrying an open class race gun in a speed holster out on the street, so that won't help the latter much, but the basic principles of shooting under pressure and such are good for everyone.
Jon_Snow said:
Exactly. I don't do it to be the overall match winner because that's never going to happen going up against open shooters. They're playing a game as far as I'm concerned. I shoot single stack major to get better at defensive shooting, to gain muscle memory, to practice with the type of load I'd use for defense, and to have fun. If I win my division it's fun, but if I beat production or limited shooters shooting minor then it makes it even more fun. If I beat production or limited shooters who think that 1911s are antiquated and unreliable pieces of junk I LOVE that. Last match I placed 2nd in my division (match before that I placed 1st) behind a guy shooting single stack minor (9mm Luger), 19th overall and beat 23 limited and production shooters. We typically have 50 to 60 sixty shooters at our matches and I'd rather have a great run over five or six stages and finish last than have a crappy day and win.
"oh please
That's like saying boxing will get you killed in a bar brawl because there's no bell to start the round. "
Not really. You're using a bad anaolgy because boxing is mock combat with a live human being. It's more like Force on Force training in our world. It would be more appropriate to say "Training for a bar fight by jumping rope will get you beat stupid"
Keep in mind that USPSA has, intentionally, no relationship to 'real world' scenarios. The only thing it offers me is a chance to shoot accurately and fast, BUT in the real world I don't get to watch 15 people shoot it first, contemplate it down to the least significant detail like which foot I'll step out of my 'shooting box' with so I land on the correct foot at the next one, put a stop watch on various props to determine whether or not I can shoot something else while they are activating, etc. Pressure? Thre is pressure in USPSA when you're new. There is pressure before you learn todeal with it.
I'm a Master class shooter and still a USPSA member. I've been through 2 defensive encounters, after which I decided to study why things happened the way they did (I wasn't happy with my 'performance' even though I won both fights). I quit shooting matches after that (much to the relief of the other shooters, who were tired of losing). I haven't shot USPSA now in over a year, I have been studying and practicing defensive shooting, watching dash cam vids, etc.
The one thing Ican tell you is that you won't use your highly stylized USPSA draw and stance in you ever need your gun inthe real world. You'll likely hunker down and present the gun with your right hand only while moving rapidly for cover--that is, unless you're a slave to USPSA. In that case you'll die, probably while asking for a reshoot or picking up brass.
Don't think that you're doing your defensive skills any good at all by shooting USPSA. You are hurting them.
That's like saying boxing will get you killed in a bar brawl because there's no bell to start the round. "
Not really. You're using a bad anaolgy because boxing is mock combat with a live human being. It's more like Force on Force training in our world. It would be more appropriate to say "Training for a bar fight by jumping rope will get you beat stupid"
Keep in mind that USPSA has, intentionally, no relationship to 'real world' scenarios. The only thing it offers me is a chance to shoot accurately and fast, BUT in the real world I don't get to watch 15 people shoot it first, contemplate it down to the least significant detail like which foot I'll step out of my 'shooting box' with so I land on the correct foot at the next one, put a stop watch on various props to determine whether or not I can shoot something else while they are activating, etc. Pressure? Thre is pressure in USPSA when you're new. There is pressure before you learn todeal with it.
I'm a Master class shooter and still a USPSA member. I've been through 2 defensive encounters, after which I decided to study why things happened the way they did (I wasn't happy with my 'performance' even though I won both fights). I quit shooting matches after that (much to the relief of the other shooters, who were tired of losing). I haven't shot USPSA now in over a year, I have been studying and practicing defensive shooting, watching dash cam vids, etc.
The one thing Ican tell you is that you won't use your highly stylized USPSA draw and stance in you ever need your gun inthe real world. You'll likely hunker down and present the gun with your right hand only while moving rapidly for cover--that is, unless you're a slave to USPSA. In that case you'll die, probably while asking for a reshoot or picking up brass.
Don't think that you're doing your defensive skills any good at all by shooting USPSA. You are hurting them.
ny32182
Member
I posted in the competition forum for a reason, folks... I don't care how anyone thinks USPSA does or doesn't line up with your favorite SHTF scenarios, I am interested in learning about how to win USPSA matches. Thanks.
LiveLife
Member
Although I promote accuracy and smoothness over speed, ultimately, it is stage times that matches are won or lost.ny32182 said:
This is what I did to improve my stage times:
- Volunteer to help with stage setup/take down/clean up. You'll learn how the the stages are set and why. When I volunteered with match setup and clean up or other match related "work days", I got tips on how to properly engage the targets and shave stage times from other seasoned shooters - one chat with the right shooter will help you save several seconds per stage with a particular setup. If you can, do a walk through of the stage and determine which path of engagement will save you the least amount of steps.
- Set up mock stage setup at home. Mount/hang targets (ask for old cardboard targets) and practice draw from start box to transition from target to target. Conduct dry fire exercise while watching the front sight (when the hammer/striker is released, your front sight should not jerk/move). If you can, time the mag changes while you are on the move to save 1-2 seconds per mag change. I used 1-2 extra mags and did mag changes when leaving a set of targets and not when my mag was empty and slide locked.
- "Smooth is fast" - Work on smoothly flowing through the stage targets instead of rushing to get to the next target as fast as you can. I often visualize the entire stage walk through as I waited to shoot a stage - and kept repeating until it was my turn to shoot. Watch other shooters and identify where you can improve time based on mistakes they make. Anticipate what you will do next in your mind and carry that out as you arrive at your next set of targets.
- Do not rush! When I step into the start box, I clear everything from my mind. The other shooters and range distractions disappear and I am left with nothing but silence and the stage targets. Ultimately, you are not competing with anyone else, but your last/best stage times. Only way you are going to get better stage scores/times is if you improve on YOUR technique as you cannot dictate what other shooters do. Shoot at your speed that maintains acceptable accuracy (all Alphas) without having to make any unforced errors which add to stage times.
- Ask other shooters to watch you shoot and have them critique your stage/shooting techniques. They'll often point out the obvious mistakes you made and offer pointers how to correct them from 3rd person perspective. They may offer other tips that will help you improve target engagement and stage times.
- Make videos of your matches. Like a football coach/team reviewing their past game to identify the mistakes they made, take a camcorder and have someone record you shooting. Seeing yourself shoot will reveal all the obvious and detailed mistakes you made and areas you can improve from stance, posture, grip, trigger control, engagement, movement, transition, mag changes, etc.
- Have fun. It may sound obvious but I found the more fun I have at the match and less time spend on getting frustrated over bad stage score/times, I do better on the next stage. If you had a bad stage shoot, make fun at why. Laughing about it will help you relax for the next stage. Like fishing, my motto is, "Worst day at match is better than best day at work!"
- Get plenty of rest and have a good breakfast. Yup. If you are tired and hungry, your accuracy and stage times will not improve. Get all of your match gear ready and go to bed early night before and get up early enough to have a good breakfast. Take plenty of hydration with you (water preferred - no high caffeine/energy drinks) to the range and "sip" through the stages to prevent going thirsty, especially on hot days. If there's no shade, wear a big shading hat to minimize heat injury.
- Network. I find most competent shooters also great teachers of THEIR favored techniques. Talk to the best shooters at the match. Often, they will take on a new pupil and pass on their secrets. We have some "older" shooters who come occasionally and will absolutely dust the younger shooters in terms of accuracy and speed. Offer them a cold drink and you may learn to shave 5-10+ seconds on a stage to win.
ny32182
Member
Thanks bds. Very good advice there, and many things I continue to work on that I believe you can never get enough of no matter how good you are. While I am new to USPSA, I am not new to action pistol competition; I shoot SSP in IDPA at the MA level, and am looking to learn about USPSA. The only guy who beat me over the weekend in a field of 32 was a Production GM shooter (unfortunately was not in my squad); however, just like IDPA I'm sure that is mostly a function of who is showing up in a small field locally and not a function of my great USPSA skills my 3rd time out. However, I appreciate your writeup. Do you shoot both sports? If so, what do you believe is emphasized skill-wise in USPSA more so than IDPA? The first thing that jumps out at me is shooting on the move. I did more shooting on the move in three stages Saturday than I've done in probably 3 months of IDPA club and sanctioned matches. What actions in USPSA are to be avoided at all cost (a function of the scoring model). An equivalent in IDPA would be an HNT or FTN; no matter what you do, you can't come close to running a decent stage if you do action XYZ.
ny32182
Member
Also I was carefully reviewing the score sheet; I believe it is easier to see in context with other scores how speed is weighted more heavily important in USPSA than IDPA. If the guy above me beat my stage time by 1.5 seconds, how many more points would I have had to score to catch up? A lot. I am convinced at this point that when in doubt, do whatever is fastest.
Zak Smith
Member
USPSA will not get you killed. Faulty mindset and/or random chance may get you killed.
Competition is one of the tools in the training toolbox-- it is not training in and of itself.
I am surprised and disappointed that after this has been hashed out over and over again on the forums for the last 10 years, that the meme that competition will get you killed it still around.
Practical-style competition does several things very well, almost uniquely well, that are related to fighting: to evolve superior gun-handling, speed, and marksmanship skills. Part of what makes this possible is objective grading. If a person can rock hard, complex USPSA stages with perfect gun handling on a weekly or monthly basis, with stages that have shooting challenges much, much more complex than any likely defensive encounter, then the marksmanship, speed, and gun-handling parts of defense will all be second-nature, not additional complications and unknowns, in the encounter.
The other major thing that practical competition contributes to training and mindset is problem solving. Any problem solving activity exercises your brain and makes you better at problem solving. On the practical shooting course, you are deciding how you can achieve the best score possible within the rules of the game, given your abilities. The best way for you to score well - or achieve whatever your goals are - might not be the same way as everyone else. The "rules" are the stage description and the physical layout of the course.
In real life, the "rules" are different - much more liberal in some ways, much more strict in others - but in a defensive encounter you must still "solve the problem." The better your mental toolset has been tuned, the better potential outcome you have. The more practice your problem-solving organ has had, the better you can do. "Gaming" is often derided by the "tactical" crowd, but "gaming" is just the process of exploiting every advantage you can. Often times the stage designer has intended the stage to be shot one way or another - if you can find the "loophole" you can get an advantage. In other words, "gaming" is exactly what you want to do in real life: you want to exploit every advantage you can, using defensive tools.
Many warriers have commented that "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game." In another thread long ago, I wrote that one of the critical elements in my conception of mindset is a technique of problem solving that is quick, pragmatic, and absolutely not limited by preconceptions (ie thinking outside the box). It is not about a particular set of rules (eg, competition rules), it is about becoming better at finding good, quick solutions to problems given any rule set.
Shooting is shooting, and there is nothing that the average man can attend on a regular basis that comes close to the opportunity to learn advanced pistol shooting skills as USPSA matches. To make an analogy, it's like shooting freethrows all day to improve that part of your basketball game, or riding a motocross track to improve technique for cross-country enduro races.
If one can't tell the difference between a USPSA match and the real life defensive use of a firearm then he should probably re-evaluate the idea of carrying for defense. Anyone who has taken force on force training knows that situations do not unfold in a set manner, and often not as one would expect. The differences between how two different defensive scenarios unfold dwarf the difference between either of them and competition.
Competition is one of the tools in the training toolbox-- it is not training in and of itself.
I am surprised and disappointed that after this has been hashed out over and over again on the forums for the last 10 years, that the meme that competition will get you killed it still around.
Practical-style competition does several things very well, almost uniquely well, that are related to fighting: to evolve superior gun-handling, speed, and marksmanship skills. Part of what makes this possible is objective grading. If a person can rock hard, complex USPSA stages with perfect gun handling on a weekly or monthly basis, with stages that have shooting challenges much, much more complex than any likely defensive encounter, then the marksmanship, speed, and gun-handling parts of defense will all be second-nature, not additional complications and unknowns, in the encounter.
The other major thing that practical competition contributes to training and mindset is problem solving. Any problem solving activity exercises your brain and makes you better at problem solving. On the practical shooting course, you are deciding how you can achieve the best score possible within the rules of the game, given your abilities. The best way for you to score well - or achieve whatever your goals are - might not be the same way as everyone else. The "rules" are the stage description and the physical layout of the course.
In real life, the "rules" are different - much more liberal in some ways, much more strict in others - but in a defensive encounter you must still "solve the problem." The better your mental toolset has been tuned, the better potential outcome you have. The more practice your problem-solving organ has had, the better you can do. "Gaming" is often derided by the "tactical" crowd, but "gaming" is just the process of exploiting every advantage you can. Often times the stage designer has intended the stage to be shot one way or another - if you can find the "loophole" you can get an advantage. In other words, "gaming" is exactly what you want to do in real life: you want to exploit every advantage you can, using defensive tools.
Many warriers have commented that "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game." In another thread long ago, I wrote that one of the critical elements in my conception of mindset is a technique of problem solving that is quick, pragmatic, and absolutely not limited by preconceptions (ie thinking outside the box). It is not about a particular set of rules (eg, competition rules), it is about becoming better at finding good, quick solutions to problems given any rule set.
Shooting is shooting, and there is nothing that the average man can attend on a regular basis that comes close to the opportunity to learn advanced pistol shooting skills as USPSA matches. To make an analogy, it's like shooting freethrows all day to improve that part of your basketball game, or riding a motocross track to improve technique for cross-country enduro races.
If one can't tell the difference between a USPSA match and the real life defensive use of a firearm then he should probably re-evaluate the idea of carrying for defense. Anyone who has taken force on force training knows that situations do not unfold in a set manner, and often not as one would expect. The differences between how two different defensive scenarios unfold dwarf the difference between either of them and competition.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Not being an idiot, I'm capable of telling the difference between a situation with fifteen armed terrorists intent on destruction and violence vs. a situation with fifteen USPSA-legal targets that don't shoot back. As a result, in one of these situations, I would charge ahead and blaze away and in the other I would not.
Zak Smith said:
I would add that under stress, most of us are only capable of a limited amount of "thinking". As a result, most of us fall back to some average level of practice or training, with an emphasis on "fall back" since we don't "rise to the occasion". The vast majority of us under stress won't magically acquire a skill that we don't have. Luckily for most of us, fast twitch muscles don't need a conscious signal from the brain. They fire because those commands are hardwired through iteration. If you have to think about the mechanics of various actions in a fight for your life, your chances of surviving that encounter are extremely low. Any form of practice that moves required functional skills into the "automatic" column is a good thing because this frees up the brain for cognitive thought.
LiveLife
Member
I subscribe to the notion that we "fight like we train" and switched from a match 1911 platform to a stock Glock 22 on a dare from a range officer.
I use G22/G27 for HD/SD and have entertained the idea of shooting USPSA/IDPA with G27 as my proficiency has increased to nearly match that of G22.
If I do, I certainly anticipate that I would enjoy the experience as every shot I fire during match would be a direct practical practice for any real SD/HD situation I may face.
I use G22/G27 for HD/SD and have entertained the idea of shooting USPSA/IDPA with G27 as my proficiency has increased to nearly match that of G22.
If I do, I certainly anticipate that I would enjoy the experience as every shot I fire during match would be a direct practical practice for any real SD/HD situation I may face.
Jon_Snow
Member
bds said:
I was amazed how many people are doing this. Almost half of the shooters at the last match I went to had someone fimling their runs. Several even had cameras mounted on their caps for a 'first person' view. I was talking to one of them and he told me the whole set-up cost him about $100, not bad if you're serious about improving.
ny32182
Member
I love video, but "hat cams" don't really do much for me from a learning perspective, since you can't see the movement/reloads, other mechanics, etc.
mgmorden
Member
They even have some glasses out now that have a camera built in. They have short record times, but recording each of a few stages at a match is virtually nothing time-wise.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=13433J2Y6QFKV31219E8
The pair above are the 3.0MP version at $110, but they list another for $60 - not sure the resolution on those.
When one looks at all of the time, money, and research the military spent before moving heavily into 3-gun as part of their training regime, anyone who still believes IPSC will get you killed is really out of touch with recent trends.
I suppose Olympic class swimmers shouldn't be life guards in any shaped pool other than a rectangle. :banghead:
lmccrock
Member
Let it go. This is the COMPETITION SHOOTING FORUM. There is another one on THR called "Strategies, Tactics and Training" if you want to talk about, well, strategies, tactics, or training.
Lee
Lee
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