(VA) Manager of ice cream shop shoots and kills robber

[machinecraig]

A fatal shooting from a few weeks ago in Richmond, VA - story still unfolding:

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news/policebeat.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2007-09-08-0136.html

Excerpt from the article:

On Thursday night, Richmond police said, Davis entered the store with a BB-gun copy of a semiautomatic handgun and demanded money from the cash register. He then ordered two ice-cream parlor employees to retreat to the back of the store. That's when the manager got his gun and fired at least eight shots at the suspect, investigators said.

One of the shots shattered the window to the store. Police said one shot hit 43-year-old Davis in the hand, and another struck him in the back. There was no indication that Davis used his BB gun.

Police yesterday were awaiting results of tests by the state medical examiner's office to determine the exact position and location of Davis' body when he was shot.

They also made a public plea for a witness to the shooting who was in the store at the time to come forward and tell them what he saw. Detectives have also interviewed the clerk who was working at the store at the time of the robbery.

Prosecutors at the Richmond Commonwealth's Attorney's Office yesterday were still reviewing whether charges would be filed in the fatal shooting. Officials did not release the name of the manager who fired the shots.

Among the issues law enforcement authorities are considering is when and where Davis was shot. Investigators said shell casings from the weapon used in the shooting were found inside and outside the store.

Also to be determined is whether the suspect was a threat to the employees when the shots were fired. Virginia law allows a person to use deadly force in self-defense only if his safety is threatened.

I hate that a foiled armed robbery could end with the manager going to Jail. This could just as easily been a story about the innocents who were shot in the ice cream parlor after complying. :banghead:

No mention of whether the manager was licensed to carry - I hope for his sake he is.

 

[savetheclaypigeons]

Sounds like it should be an easy self defense issue, case closed. Anything else....

 

[igpoobah]

There was no indication that Davis used his BB gun.

How is this pertinent? This statement is laughable!

Virginia law allows a person to use deadly force in self-defense only if his safety is threatened.

You point a gun at a person (fake or not), their safety is threatened. How is anyone supposed to determine under that kind of pressure that it is a BB gun? You don't, that's why robbing a bank with a BB gun is still armed robbery...

Silly reporters.

 

[RNB65]

Here's a poll you can hit to support the store manager. It's on the right at the bottom.

http://www.decisionvirginia.com/

Most likely the case will be sent to a grand jury who will laugh it out of court. With all the crime that has been taking place along Forest Hill Ave recently, a grand jury isn't going to indict anyone for taking out one of the thugs. It was a good shoot.

 

[VTKFJoe]

255 votes to 14 not to charge the manager...

I wrote to the police urging them to not charge the manager and recieved this note in return:

Thank you for your comments, your thoughts on the incident are shared by many people in the area.



Major Dave McCoy

Richmond Police Department

The thing is that the manager will likely win if it goes to court but it will cost him in legal fees.

The marquee out in front of that store always says something offbeat - right now it says "the longest single syllable word in the English language is SCREECHED" not sure why I posted that but...

Stay safe.

Joe

 

[RNB65]

Joe, the Richmond Commonwealth Attorney is who you need to contact. He's going to be the one who decides whether to file charges, turn it over to a grand jury, or drop it. The RPD isn't involved in the prosecution.

 

[oobray]

I think the store clerk is going to run in to two problems.
1) Shell casings were found outside the store, indicating that the clerk was possibly shooting at the suspect as the suspect was running away.

2) The article mentioned that the suspect was shot in the back. We all know how attorneys have turned a good shoot into a nightmare for similar reasons.

 

[machinecraig]

Joe, nice work on contacting the PD.
Judging from this article, Michael Herring may be city attorney handling the case.

Here's the article with more info on the case:
http://www.nbc12.com/news/state/9718272.html

An excerpt:

Herring says the big question in this case is why the shots were fired.
“The nature of the threat has to be such that your response is proportional,” he said. “In other words, I could not respond to your verbal gestures by blowing your head off. You have to reasonably perceive an eminent threat of serious bodily harm to yourself or others to resort to deadly force.”

I think when the facts come out they will show a reasonable perception of an eminent threat.

Interestingly, I first became aware of the story by seeing it on the NRA-ILA "Armed Citizen" site for Virginia a few days ago. It was just a brief blurb describing it as a simple justified shooting. I checked back today and the story's no longer there.

 

[RustyHammer]

.... Sounds like a "rocky road" ahead.

 

[Blackbeard]

I think the store clerk is going to run in to two problems.
1) Shell casings were found outside the store, indicating that the clerk was possibly shooting at the suspect as the suspect was running away.

Depends on the layout of the store. They did say that the front window was shattered. Maybe his semi-auto ejected his brass all the way out the window. We don't have enough facts to make a call.

 

[VTKFJoe]

RNB65, thanks -I'll contact the CA. I e-mailed the PD the day after it happened to show support, this was before he was going to grad jury (and I got the link off of a local discussion - craigslist or maybe glockers of the OD?? can't remember).

Of course we don't know exactly how it went down but I can think of ways that in the course of firing 8 rounds the armed robber may have turned and caught one in the back and the brass may have ejected out the broken window but of course I want to give the guy working the benefit of the doubt over the career crimnal...

I know of a case years ago when the owner of a Fan (a Richmond neighborhood) market followed a perp out of his store and shot him in the back and was cleared of any charges. Of course the store owner had to get an expensive lawyer and the kid didn't die but who knows maybe this could work out.

Stay safe.

Joe

 

[machinecraig]

The Richmond city prosecutor has decided that the case will go to trial. With all the shootings in Richmond over the past few months - I'm astonished that they have the time to pursue this.

"If there's anything I want people to take away from this, it's that I don't think more guns is in any way a good thing," the prosecutor added.
"It's only a matter of time before some victim hits an innocent bystander. Then what?"

Here's a link to the full article.

 

[james_bond]

That is why every time I am head up at gun point I pull out a set of calipers and measure the inside muzzzle diameter of the gun pointed at me. If it is .177", I know it is just an air pistol, but if it is .345' (9mm). .40" or .45" I know it is a real gun and I can be justufied in using force to defend my self.

 

[Jeff White]

Is there any evidence that Davis had a dirty bomb in his possession or a nuclear device he was going to detonate if not stopped immediately? If not,and the report is correct that Fielding shot Davis after he left the store, then the charges are correct.

Shooting at fleeing felons ceased to be the law of the land years ago when the USSC ruled on Garner v. Tennessee. Even if Fielding claims he was trying to apprehend Davis, every citizens arrest law I've ever seen, limits the citizen to the same standards for use of force as a peace officer is held to.

The Commonwealth Attorney probably wants to make a statement, that it's not legal or smart to blast away at a robber fleeing the scene. Unfortunately for Fielding, he's probably going to have to be the vehicle the CA uses to teach the lesson. Maybe a jury won't convict him. It doesn't really matter, his life is going to be forever changed because he apparently didn't take the time to learn the laws pertaining to the use of deadly force, or if he did know them, he let his emotions take over.

The police have the pistol. They'll be able to see where it ejects the spent casings and from that pretty reliably establish where Fielding was standing when he fired the shots. The forensics people are really good recreating what happened from physical evidence like ejected shell casing and blood spatter. I'm sure the CA looked at the evidence before the decision as made to charge Fielding, especially with public opinion seemingly so much on Fielding's side.

I think if he's lucky, he'll get probation, lose RKBA for life and spend the next 10 years working to pay for his defense.

The lesson, know the laws in regards to the use of deadly force where you are, and follow them.

Jeff

 

[ace1001]

Nice thing about revolvers is they don't throw your brass away. Nice for several reasons.
If a BG is hearding people into the back room at gunpoint, I feel justified in shooting him down. The opportunity is fleeting to head this off without loosing hostages, and that back room is where really bad things happen. Usually I would give PLENTY of warning, but that is one where I would not. Ace

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Picking A Nit

Good evening, I'm Garry, and I'll be your pedantic calibre nazi tonight.

. . . but if it is .345' (9mm). .40" or .45" I know it is a real gun . . .

Your hand slipped.

Twice.

.345' = .345 feet = 4.14 inches = one heck of a deck gun.

That whole feet (') and inches (") notation is tricky.

.345" = 8.75mm.
.355" = 9mm.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of "Fast Food & Faster Guns."

 

[Jeff White]

ace1001 said;

Nice thing about revolvers is they don't throw your brass away. Nice for several reasons.

Are you suggesting that you should lie about what happened because there are no ejected shell casings to prove what really happened?

Jeff

 

[marley]

I drive down forest hill ave all the time. I am not so sure I would like to dodge the 8 shots the fired off outside. Perhaps the guy shot at him from out side and he was trying to be a witness. I don't think their is much public out rage over it. Glad I moved back across the river. Patrick

 

[DontBurnMyFlag]

Thats why you drag the perps body back into the store, put him face up, shoot him in the chest and put a note in his hand that says "after I kill the workers in this store I intend to kill lot of other people"...then call the police. All your bases are covered haha

Ok. Seriously. This makes me sick. A criminal gets what he deserves, the public is safer...yet the good guy may face jail time. Sounds like England to me.

 

[ilbob]

ace1001 said: Nice thing about revolvers is they don't throw your brass away. Nice for several reasons.

Are you suggesting that you should lie about what happened because there are no ejected shell casings to prove what really happened?

Nice thing about this being America is that there is no requirement for you to say anything at all in such a case. And you are well advised to say nothing at all other than "lawyer".

 

[SDC]

Maybe he should open an ice cream parlour in Israel.

 

[Jeff White]

Ok folks...look at the top of the page. You are in the Strategies and Tactics forum. Let's keep it on topic.....

Jeff

 

[Zoogster]

That is why every time I am head up at gun point I pull out a set of calipers and measure the inside muzzzle diameter of the gun pointed at me. If it is .177", I know it is just an air pistol, but if it is .345' (9mm). .40" or .45" I know it is a real gun and I can be justufied in using force to defend my self.

In addition to the feet and inches thing, there is several calibers close to that anyways. The very common calibers in .22 are not too far away. The FN 5.7 is also .22 caliber. However the .17 HMR (rimfire) and the .17 remington are both commercialy available and would appear virtualy identical in bore size to your eye with a pellet/bb gun.

So there is both calibers that would have visualy identical bore to a BB gun, and many that could be quite lethal that in such circumstances would not look much different.
So staring down the bore of a gun to determine your safety is going to always be a bad tactic.

In addition several airguns, even pistols are in fact quite dangerous. You can get over 1000 FPS now with some, and can modify existing cheap ones to get within that range. While not a manstopper it could cause serious injury or death in the right spot. With a heavy pellet pushed close to that and such a small diameter you could get pretty high penetration. So even if it is obviously an airgun that does not change the fact that someone is pointing a dangerous weapon at you in a threatening manner.

 

[VARifleman]

I remember it said on this forum by someone who was stopped by swat with m16s that it doesn't matter how small that muzzle is...when looking at it from the other direction, it looks like a cannon.

 

[strambo]

We don't have enough info to judge. Was brass kicked outside the door? Pretty easy to kick brass inadvertantly by either person in the heat of a struggle and have it get sent quite a ways.

Were some shots close enough that brass could have landed in the folds of the perps or store owner's clothing and got tracked outside? I know I've sure tracked brass around that way before too.

We don't have the facts...hopefully, the grand jury will get all the facts.