Verified GB seller

[stonebuster]

I found a revolver I'm interested in on GB yesterday offered by a "verified" but NR(non registered) seller. Usually I won't deal with NR sellers but it's a good price and he's Verified. The NR, low price and I just noticed 3/3/2023 join date has me suspicious. He's got a couple others listed. Payment by personal check, money order or USPS MO. My gut tells me stay away. What do you think?

 

[kidneyboy]

Stay away. There is a good chance whoever made that particular revolver made more than one.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I actually just purchased a WW2 Colt from a new and unrated seller, and for the most part, it went great. My advice is to see if they'll video chat with you and show you the gun on video. You can get a good feel for hinkiness this way. There are a lot of scammers out there, but there are also a lot of honest people who inherited guns they have no interest in and are trying to dispose of them. Ask if they'll use an escrow service, and try to get a sense of what kind of person you're dealing with.

 

[stonebuster]

I actually just purchased a WW2 Colt from a new and unrated seller, and for the most part, it went great. My advice is to see if they'll video chat with you and show you the gun on video. You can get a good feel for hinkiness this way. There are a lot of scammers out there, but there are also a lot of honest people who inherited guns they have no interest in and are trying to dispose of them. Ask if they'll use an escrow service, and try to get a sense of what kind of person you're dealing with.

Maybe I'll ask for a couple of more photos of specific areas I'd like to see. Does using USPS MO as payment offer any protection from loss if I didn't receive it?

 

[Rule3]

Does using USPS MO as payment offer any protection from loss if I didn't receive it?

NO!

 

[Riomouse911]

USPS money orders are for the benefit of the seller, mainly because they were harder to forge than others were and have federal penalties attached if they are forged.

For the buyer they are just a hoop to jump through.

Contact seller and ask to see images not on the post or a video clip of him showing the gun. If the seller won’t, pass and move on.

 

[jag22]

So what exactly is a verified seller. Does that mean GB has done some sort of background check? Otherwise it sounds like a normal GB ad except it is first. He has to give you his name and address, you can google and look at the address, probably a house, many clues there. You could ask for a phone number, if he refuses that would be a red flag. Are the photos of the actual gun or appear to be some stock photo. Without looking at the actual ad this seems like a normal GB ad but you still need to use common sense.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Maybe I'll ask for a couple of more photos of specific areas I'd like to see. Does using USPS MO as payment offer any protection from loss if I didn't receive it?

Seriously, getting on Google Meet or something similar for a video call really makes a difference. I felt so much better buying a high-dollar gun from a no-feedback GB seller after I talked with him on Google Meet. He was very clearly exactly what he said he was.

 

[Styx]

I purchased an out of state Walther Q4 SF via ArmsList. The seller was selling the $1450 gun with extra mags and aftermarket sights for only $850, so I naturally thought it was to good to be true.

A non FFL seller has to send a copy of their ID with the firearm anyway, so I asked the seller to send me a selfie of them holding his government ID and the gun and to do it within 10 to 15 minutes of me asking which he did. I made sure the state and city that was in his ID matched the telephone code that he was calling and texting from. I also asked him if he was a member of any firearm forums, which he was, and I asked him to post an ad in the market place and mark it sold to me. If he refused to do those task, I would NOT have went through with the sale.

As far as Gunbroker verified accounts, they verify who you are via ID and credit or bank account through a 3rd party company. I believe there's a small fee for this service. I also had to answer some personal multiple choice questions about past addresses I lived, names of family members, and credit accounts I had/have. FYI ALL seller accounts must be verified, so that means all the fraud and people getting ripped off by sellers on Gunbroker were getting ripped off by verified accounts.

 

[dogtown tom]

USPS money orders are for the benefit of the seller, mainly because they were harder to forge than others were .

USPS money orders are very easy to fake.....just buy a $5 money order, then reprint $500 over it.
Thats the same technique used to run phony $100's.

Thats why those "counterfeit detector pens" are useless.

<----has very good friend that is USSS.

and have federal penalties attached if they are forged...

It doesn't matter if the payment was USPS money order or a 7-11 money order, personal check or bubble gum wrappers.......mail fraud is a federal crime. Take someone's money when they paid via debit or credit card it's wire fraud. All are federal crimes.

 

[Styx]

USPS money orders are for the benefit of the seller, mainly because they were harder to forge than others were and have federal penalties attached if they are forged.

USPS money orders are very easy to fake.....just buy a $5 money order, then reprint $500 over it.
Thats the same technique used to run phony $100's.

Most sellers aren't shipping anything until the money order is cashed free and clear anyway. The main benefit of a money order vs a personal check is the buyers bank and routing number isn't given to the seller, and the funds aren't pulled from the buyer's bank account and can not bounce.

 

[Waveski]

I cannot activate my radar without seeing the ad , but I will say that you need to communicate with the seller and assess his res, verbiage , etc. You can learn a lot from a phone conversation.

If you are not completely satisfied w the communications - response time , tone of voice, word choice , et al , look elsewhere.

 

[dogtown tom]

Most sellers aren't shipping anything until the money order is cashed free and clear anyway. The main benefit of a money order vs a personal check is the buyers bank and routing number isn't given to the seller, and the funds aren't pulled from the buyer's bank account and can not bounce.

Fake money orders absolutely do bounce.

The counterfeit cashier's check scam is a scheme wherein the victim is sent a cashier's check or money order for payment on an item for sale on the Internet. When the money order is taken to the bank it may not be detected as counterfeit for 10 business days or more, but the bank will deposit the money into the account and state that it has been "verified" or is "clear" in about 24 hours. This gives the victim a false feeling of security that the money order was real, so they proceed with the transaction. When the bank eventually discovers that the money order is counterfeit and reverses the account credit many days later, the customer will usually have already mailed the item. In many cases the "check" or "money order" is for more than the amount owed, and the victim is asked to refund the difference in cash

 

[Riomouse911]

Most sellers aren't shipping anything until the money order is cashed free and clear anyway. The main benefit of a money order vs a personal check is the buyers bank and routing number isn't given to the seller, and the funds aren't pulled from the buyer's bank account and can not bounce.

Same with cc charges, personal or cashiers checks, money transfers, etc. All have to clear before folks ship. (I’ve seen some sellers put additional time on personal checks, I guess so a withdrawal, reversal or a stop payment won’t mess up the transaction.)

USPS money orders are very easy to fake.....just buy a $5 money order, then reprint $500 over it.
Thats the same technique used to run phony $100's.

Thats why those "counterfeit detector pens" are useless.

<----has very good friend that is USSS.


It doesn't matter if the payment was USPS money order or a 7-11 money order, personal check or bubble gum wrappers.......mail fraud is a federal crime. Take someone's money when they paid via debit or credit card it's wire fraud. All are federal crimes.

Title 18, part 1, Ch 25, code 500 is Postal Money Order fraud, as the post office is the victim. Says nothing about non federal entity victims, like a bank or 7-11. State penal codes cover those, the postal inspectors, secret service or FBI wouldn’t touch one of these single-victim, non USPS money order cases even if it was sent through the mail. (Been there, done that several times.) The postal inspectors will take USPS MO cases, though.

Thats why I said used to be harder to fake with specific federal protections. Nothing is hard to fake anymore.

With laser printers and hi-res scanners, one can forge a mortgage satisfaction on a current mortgage, and a quit claim deed with anyone’s signatures and notary stamps, file them, and pull a new mortgage in someone’s name to equity-strip any privately owned property in the country in a matter of days.

The property owner, or the identity theft victim with the loan in their name, won’t even know what happened until the loan goes into default. (Worked the past 16+ years working or supervising major fraud; including political corruption, real estate, workers comp, auto insurance and consumer protection fraud.) This stuff happens every day.

As for the OP, let us know if the seller responds to you.

Stay safe.

 

[dogtown tom]

Title 18, part 1, Ch 25, code 500 is Postal Money Order fraud, as the post office is the victim. Says nothing about non federal entity victims, like a bank or 7-11.

Of course it doesn't. That is specific to counterfeiting USPS money orders. FYI....there is more than one cite in the US Code that can apply.
But.......being that you mail a bogus USPS money order OR a bogus 7-11 money order or forged bank or personal check AGAIN, you commit mail fraud, a federal crime.
USPS Postal Inspectors don't care what method of payment was sent or forged, just that it was a fraudulent act by mailing.
http://uscode.lawi.us/18-usc-1341/

18-U.S.C.-1341
§1341 – Frauds and Swindles
Pathway
Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 63 > Section 1341

Details
Reference: Section 1341
Legend: §1341 – Frauds and Swindles
USCode Year: 2013
Provision Content
Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, or to sell, dispose of, loan, exchange, alter, give away, distribute, supply, or furnish or procure for unlawful use any counterfeit or spurious coin, obligation, security, or other article, or anything represented to be or intimated or held out to be such counterfeit or spurious article, for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice or attempting so to do, places in any post office or authorized depository for mail matter, any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service, or deposits or causes to be deposited any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by any private or commercial interstate carrier, or takes or receives therefrom, any such matter or thing, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail or such carrier according to the direction thereon, or at the place at which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any such matter or thing, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a presidentially declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

State penal codes cover those, the postal inspectors, secret service or FBI wouldn’t touch one of these single-victim, non USPS money order cases even if it was sent through the mail. (Been there, done that several times.) The postal inspectors will take USPS MO cases, though.

They may not have taken your case, but they sure as heck do take those cases!
I have a customer who sent a personal check for a machine gun purchase and the seller cashed it, never filed the Form 4 or made any effort to complete the transaction. USPS Postal Inspectors eventually arrested the seller and he made restitution.

 

[Riomouse911]

Of course it doesn't. That is specific to counterfeiting USPS money orders. FYI....there is more than one cite in the US Code that can apply.
But.......being that you mail a bogus USPS money order OR a bogus 7-11 money order or forged bank or personal check AGAIN, you commit mail fraud, a federal crime.
USPS Postal Inspectors don't care what method of payment was sent or forged, just that it was a fraudulent act by mailing.
http://uscode.lawi.us/18-usc-1341/






They may not have taken your case, but they sure as heck do take those cases!
I have a customer who sent a personal check for a machine gun purchase and the seller cashed it, never filed the Form 4 or made any effort to complete the transaction. USPS Postal Inspectors eventually arrested the seller and he made restitution.

Right. If it’s a sexy case the feds will jump to it, your machine gun case certainly is one.

If it’s a run of the mill case, like the OP is concerned about, good luck. May as well go state, they won’t roll out.

Stay safe.

 

[PzGren]

NR stands for non rated seller, in other words a seller with no feed back. That is how everybody starts out. GB verifies sellers by charging a members account for an amount under one Dollar and lets the new member send them an email with the exact amoung, which will then be refunded but the bank account and email have been verified.

How to vette a seller has been answered ad nauseam in this forum.

 

[Rule3]

Of course it doesn't. That is specific to counterfeiting USPS money orders. FYI....there is more than one cite in the US Code that can apply.
But.......being that you mail a bogus USPS money order OR a bogus 7-11 money order or forged bank or personal check AGAIN, you commit mail fraud, a federal crime.
USPS Postal Inspectors don't care what method of payment was sent or forged, just that it was a fraudulent act by mailing.
http://uscode.lawi.us/18-usc-1341/






They may not have taken your case, but they sure as heck do take those cases!
I have a customer who sent a personal check for a machine gun purchase and the seller cashed it, never filed the Form 4 or made any effort to complete the transaction. USPS Postal Inspectors eventually arrested the seller and he made restitution.

Not to burst your bubble, but the USPS has about 1,200 inspectors, Getting ripped off on GB (or online like Ebay) for a item worth say $900 ,is not gonna be high on their list. They are not gonna jump into action to get your money back. They have much bigger fish to fry!

https://www.uspis.gov/about/how-we-do-it

 

[dogtown tom]

Not to burst your bubble, but the USPS has about 1,200 inspectors, Getting ripped off on GB (or online like Ebay) for a item worth say $900 ,is not gonna be high on their list. They are not gonna jump into action to get your money back. They have much bigger fish to fry!

https://www.uspis.gov/about/how-we-do-it

Yet they do.

You keep posting links thinking they prove some point, but again, this link disproves your point. From your link:

Investigating Postal Crimes
Postal Inspectors investigate any crime with a nexus to the mail. These crimes include mail theft, mail fraud, financial fraud, identity theft, robberies and burglaries of postal facilities, assaults and threats on postal employees, investigations of dangerous and prohibited mails, narcotics, cybercrime and much more.

Once an investigation is underway, Postal Inspectors present the case to prosecutors from the U.S. Attorney’s Office and local prosecutors. Throughout the prosecution, Postal Inspectors and other Postal Inspection Service employees can be called to provide testimony and explain their findings, process, and conclusions.

Mail Fraud
The Postal Inspection Service prosecutes any scheme that uses the U.S. Mail® to obtain money or something of value by offering a product, service, or investment that intentionally does not live up to its claim.

Mail and Package Theft
U.S. Mail® should arrive unopened, unread, and intact. When it doesn’t, the Postal Inspection Service, the law enforcement arm of the United States Postal Service®, aggressively investigates mail theft.

As far as things "high on their list"?
My personal experience with Postal Inspectors involved a silencer that was shown on tracking as delivered and signed for....it wasn't. The letter carrier actually returned to the seller by accident. Postal Inspectors took two weeks to investigate before locating the package.

Another interaction was a letter carrier who forged my name on the Adult Signature slip. Postal Inspector called me to verify that I didn't sign it and recovered the package.

The most recent interaction was when a shipment addressed to me was delivered to the wrong address and opened. They panicked, called the local PD and post office. Postal Inspector delivered the gun to my door.

The silencer was a $100 Rebel rimfire can, the other was a Glock worth $550.

Yeah big fish.

 

[wayneinFL]

The most recent interaction was when a shipment addressed to me was delivered to the wrong address and opened. They panicked, called the local PD and post office. Postal Inspector delivered the gun to my door.

Heh.

I had two 1911s that were accidentally dropped to a shop down the street from my local dealer. The guy had opened the package, saw the guns and just sat on it a month and a half hoping no one was going to ask for them.

Postal service was absolutely no help. Other than they recorded the name of the guy who signed for it. So I could call every business on SR 7 in Fort Lauderdale until I found "Jeff".

USPS just argued that it was delivered and signed for and that was it. Never mind the fact that there were only two people who worked/owned the shop, Boris and his nephew, Vladimir. And it wasn't like they had any relatives named Jeff.

 

[film495]

just ask them a few questions and see how responsive they are. my guess would be if something is fishy, they don't want to create a comm trail and if they are just new they'll be more than happy to work with a buyer.

 

[dogtown tom]

Heh.

I had two 1911s that were accidentally dropped to a shop down the street from my local dealer. The guy had opened the package, saw the guns and just sat on it a month and a half hoping no one was going to ask for them.

Postal service was absolutely no help. Other than they recorded the name of the guy who signed for it. So I could call every business on SR 7 in Fort Lauderdale until I found "Jeff".

USPS just argued that it was delivered and signed for and that was it. Never mind the fact that there were only two people who worked/owned the shop, Boris and his nephew, Vladimir. And it wasn't like they had any relatives named Jeff.

USPS/UPS/FedEx would all have behaved the same........you were not the recipient. That would have been your gun dealer.
Seller is the one that should have been chasing that gun down as its on his books until received by your dealer.

 

[tws3b2]

A couple years ago I posted a photo of my gun on Numrich that i was looking for parts for. A guy on armslist said he had the same gun and would sell me parts. I asked him to send me photos of his gun just so I would know he really had it. He found my photo on numrich and sent it to me saying it was his.
I would at least try to get him to give you his phone number so you can call and ask questions. Tell him your concerns and you are worried about scams. If he is up and up he would understand and maybe try to work with you.

 

[wayneinFL]

USPS/UPS/FedEx would all have behaved the same........you were not the recipient. That would have been your gun dealer.
Seller is the one that should have been chasing that gun down as its on his books until received by your dealer.

Yes. They all suck. It came to mind this morning because FedEx has delayed my closing because "overnight" is taking 4 days to make it across the state. I've sworn off every carrier at one point or another and now I just assume things are going to get lost, damaged, or delayed- at a rate directly proportional to the importance or urgency of the item.

Why would the seller care? He got his money, and "proof of delivery". Wig shop receiving clerk had a free scandium frame SW 1911, and a Kimber. Vladimir didn't have to fill out the book and do a 3310 form. The only one with any skin in the game was me.

It's one of the risks associated with buying online. It's a fair tradeoff.

There's a part of me that still gets irritated with stuff I can't control, like people who won't do their job, or who are dishonest.

 

[dogtown tom]

Why would the seller care? ..

Because when you or your dealer notified him of a missing firearm he knows ATF is going to be up his backside.

He got his money, and "proof of delivery".

True, but if that "proof of delivery" is not a licensed dealer, then the seller is required by federal law to report the firearm as stolen/missing.

Wig shop receiving clerk had a free scandium frame SW 1911, and a Kimber. Vladimir didn't have to fill out the book and do a 3310 form. The only one with any skin in the game was me.

The cost of replacing those missing firearms is less than losing his FFL.