I don't see any use for vertical foregrips, yet they show up on lots of military styled black rifles. What good are they?
vertical foregrip advantages?
- Thread starter klover
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It's simple ergonomics. Stand up and pretend you are have a rifle mounted. Put your right (if you're right handed) hand on the imaginary pistol grip. Now put your left hand out forward on the forestock barrel. The most natural and comfortable position for your left hand will be pretty much vertical. In that position, you have better ability to control the weapon. You can exert more pressure forward or backward, and are more accurate and quick in side-to-side movement. You also typically have more ability to resist upward movement, such as would be caused by recoil.
That can be a huge advantage when you are moving quickly in tight quarters, i.e., CQB. A forward pistol grip is a hindrance for prone and bench shooting, so you won't see them on sniper rifles.
That can be a huge advantage when you are moving quickly in tight quarters, i.e., CQB. A forward pistol grip is a hindrance for prone and bench shooting, so you won't see them on sniper rifles.
Depends on how you use the rifle.
In a conventional target shooting position, you're right, they ain't so much. In a squared-up stance like they teach for fighting on the move, all becomes clear.
In a conventional target shooting position, you're right, they ain't so much. In a squared-up stance like they teach for fighting on the move, all becomes clear.
Asked and answered. Very well, I might add. With a VFG, mounting the rifle is as simple as, "Putting your dukes up."
that is the great thing about the ar platforms mine is totally modular and can be adapted to many situations. so if i am working on mout, cqb stuff, or transitions it comes in quite handy, but otherwise it comes off. just like the bi-pod. if i need something on the weapon i put it on there if i don't then i take it off. that simple.
I have been on this fence too. My RRA has been totallly reliable but I've been debating the need/use for that VFG.
I should point out that I don't have one, despite the fact that I have three or four "black rifles." I've just never seen the need, as I'm not an "operator" and I've never had occasion to engage in CQB or house clearing. If I was expecting to do those things, I'd probably be building an M4 with a forward pistol grip.
Hi Klover...
I'm going to agreeably disagree with F-K-Best.
He writes...
"The most natural and comfortable position for your left hand will be pretty much vertical. In that position, you have better ability to control the weapon.
Take a 10-lb weight in your left hand and do a "curl' with it, beginning with your hand positioned as if you were using a normal stock. Then do a curl beginning with your hand positioned as if you were holding the vertical stock extension. Whichever of those starting positions makes it easier to do the curl is the one that will be easier to use with your rifle. Psst. I already know which one it will be.
You can exert more pressure forward or backward, and are more accurate and quick in side-to-side movement. "More pressure backward is not necessarily a good thing. The goal is to exert the "right" pressure backward. As for being more accurate and quick, I disagree because with a normal stock you take advantage of simply moving your wrist to move the gun side to side whereas with the VSE you will use (primarily) your elbow to make those moves and your wrist is way more precise with way less effort than your elbow. Obviously on really big lateral moves you use your waist in conjunction with wrist and/or elbow.
You also typically have more ability to resist upward movement, such as would be caused by recoil. Again, "more" isn't important - "enough" and "the right amount" is.
Another thing to note - the VSE poses complications if you are shooting from a position let's say from behind a wall. You either jam your knuckles into the wall or you lift yourself up (into enemy sight) to get the VSE clear of the top of your wall.
Loccl opinions may vary.
I'm going to agreeably disagree with F-K-Best.
He writes...
"The most natural and comfortable position for your left hand will be pretty much vertical. In that position, you have better ability to control the weapon.
Take a 10-lb weight in your left hand and do a "curl' with it, beginning with your hand positioned as if you were using a normal stock. Then do a curl beginning with your hand positioned as if you were holding the vertical stock extension. Whichever of those starting positions makes it easier to do the curl is the one that will be easier to use with your rifle. Psst. I already know which one it will be.
You can exert more pressure forward or backward, and are more accurate and quick in side-to-side movement. "More pressure backward is not necessarily a good thing. The goal is to exert the "right" pressure backward. As for being more accurate and quick, I disagree because with a normal stock you take advantage of simply moving your wrist to move the gun side to side whereas with the VSE you will use (primarily) your elbow to make those moves and your wrist is way more precise with way less effort than your elbow. Obviously on really big lateral moves you use your waist in conjunction with wrist and/or elbow.
You also typically have more ability to resist upward movement, such as would be caused by recoil. Again, "more" isn't important - "enough" and "the right amount" is.
Another thing to note - the VSE poses complications if you are shooting from a position let's say from behind a wall. You either jam your knuckles into the wall or you lift yourself up (into enemy sight) to get the VSE clear of the top of your wall.
Loccl opinions may vary.
Protecting your hand from a very hot forearm stock is one good reason. It will only get real hot if you fire real fast, and if you fire real fast, accuracy that could be had from not having a foregrip and using a rest becomes a non-issue.
They're good for close in situations such as house clearing. They're also good for firing from the hip. I do neither so to me they just look too "rooney gun" to consider. The worst use is on a shotgun. I had the misfortune to try one out for a few months. But hey, "tacti-cool" is the newest fad.
The only advantage of a vertical foregrip I've been able to determine, is that it's more ergonomic when shooting/moving from a modern isosceles stance. However, much the same advantage can be had by simply holding the forearm of your rifle at the left side (assuming a right-handed shooter.)
Pulling back on the VFG with the off hand is a horrible idea, can easily spoil your balance, and will cause you to string your shots vertically.
- Chris
Pulling back on the VFG with the off hand is a horrible idea, can easily spoil your balance, and will cause you to string your shots vertically.
- Chris
Zak Smith
Member
Two more reasons:
1. Generally better weapon control when re-engaging the same target multiple times. The experiment I use was to run a short stage where I shot 3 targets at 15-25 yards. When there were more target transitions compared to target re-engagements, grasping the forward end of the forearm was faster (ie, pointability), however, when target re-engagement dominated (e.g. shoot each target 3 times), the VFG was faster.
2. Activating a carbine-mounted light is often easier with a VFG.
Sometimes the best way to determine if something is right for you is to device and experiment and try it for yourself.
1. Generally better weapon control when re-engaging the same target multiple times. The experiment I use was to run a short stage where I shot 3 targets at 15-25 yards. When there were more target transitions compared to target re-engagements, grasping the forward end of the forearm was faster (ie, pointability), however, when target re-engagement dominated (e.g. shoot each target 3 times), the VFG was faster.
2. Activating a carbine-mounted light is often easier with a VFG.
Sometimes the best way to determine if something is right for you is to device and experiment and try it for yourself.
Some people find it more comfortable when firing off hand. It can also provide for better weapon retention and lateral movement of the muzzle.
They're getting more and more common in leveraction competitions here in the UK for those reasons, and also because they make it easier to hold the weapon back into the shoulder when working the action:
Yep, if a mall ninja couldn't own semi-autos, he'd get one of these
They're getting more and more common in leveraction competitions here in the UK for those reasons, and also because they make it easier to hold the weapon back into the shoulder when working the action:
Yep, if a mall ninja couldn't own semi-autos, he'd get one of these
Tell me that's a photoshop - - please! hunh. see something new every day.
Hey -- is that duct tape around the lever? For protecting the back of your fingers I take it?
The local single-action/cowboy shooters do something similar, but with leather lace or a leather cuff.
Why so thick though?
Hey -- is that duct tape around the lever? For protecting the back of your fingers I take it?
The local single-action/cowboy shooters do something similar, but with leather lace or a leather cuff.
Why so thick though?
Not all clearing operations are over in 5 minutes, 10 minutes or even half an hour. I've cleared buildings in response to an alarm that took an hour and a half or more to clear properly. A VFG results in less fatigue and that equals better reaction time.
No, it's not photoshopped
The thing on the lever is foam covered with duct tape. It stops your fingers getting sore but it also sit touching your hand, meaning that the instant you start moving your hand, the lever starts moving too - no wasted time or effort getting your hand in contact with the metal.
The thing on the lever is foam covered with duct tape. It stops your fingers getting sore but it also sit touching your hand, meaning that the instant you start moving your hand, the lever starts moving too - no wasted time or effort getting your hand in contact with the metal.
they also aid in giving someone a good muzzle thump to the chest, when less lethal means are needed and you want to be able to keep good control on the weapon.
Personally, I never thought much about them the first few years they started coming out. About 2000/2001, I had the opportunity to actually shoulder someone's M4-type AR at the range I was a member of. At the time, I had 3 ARs with no VFG on any of them. When I shouldered that VFGed gun, I was surprised at how more comfortable it was to hold up. I haven't modified my 3 original ARs but I did put one on a 4th one I bought.
In short, shoulder (and shoot, if possible) a VFGed gun to see for yourself.
In short, shoulder (and shoot, if possible) a VFGed gun to see for yourself.
I'm not saying they can't make the rifle handier for you, but I don't know about the "natural fighting stance" assertions. Simply because, your wrists are bent the wrong way.
The most NATRUAL angle for the weapons front and rear grips would be angled FORWARD; hold your hands up like you're about to get into a fist-fight and you'll see what I mean. The tops of your thumbs will typically point back towards your face, not up towards the ceiling.
Funny enough, the Russians have been using forward angled front grips for years. The original idea was, I think, to clear the magazine as it's rocked into position, but I think the angle would be a bit more natural and involve less bending of the wrist.
Depends on your weapon system too. I wouldn't put on on my FAL carbine. It isn't necessary; for fast, close shooting, one can grip the receiver/magazine and pull the weapon in tight. Plus, your off-hand thumb is right there when you need to hit the magazine release paddle. I tend to do that with AKs, too.
The most NATRUAL angle for the weapons front and rear grips would be angled FORWARD; hold your hands up like you're about to get into a fist-fight and you'll see what I mean. The tops of your thumbs will typically point back towards your face, not up towards the ceiling.
Funny enough, the Russians have been using forward angled front grips for years. The original idea was, I think, to clear the magazine as it's rocked into position, but I think the angle would be a bit more natural and involve less bending of the wrist.
Depends on your weapon system too. I wouldn't put on on my FAL carbine. It isn't necessary; for fast, close shooting, one can grip the receiver/magazine and pull the weapon in tight. Plus, your off-hand thumb is right there when you need to hit the magazine release paddle. I tend to do that with AKs, too.
What it comes down to is comfort vs. accuracy. By placing your hands in differant positions (pistol grip trigger with traditional foregrip) you counteract any tendancy to drift or roll the weapon. On the other hand, it close contact urban assault, the dual pistol grip can be beneficial in a more rapid firing position stance where accuracy isn't much of a concern.
Thanks Fosbery, we all knew our primitive Amurrican lever-actions were missing something. Now we can fill the void. I look forward to seeing lots more vertical foregrips and dragunov stocks at the local CAS competitions 
(Actually I see your point about working the lever, I'm just having a little trouble visualizing the new design of the saddle scabbard...)
(Actually I see your point about working the lever, I'm just having a little trouble visualizing the new design of the saddle scabbard...)
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