Very close call

[crofrog]

For those of you who know maryland. I had a friend who was verbally assulted in his car by some neo-nazi / skinhead types for being jewish, on MD RT2 by the Marley Station mall. It's becoming a real issue here. DC has the highest murder rate baltimore isn't far behind. Every person must ask himself do "I want to be tried by 12 or carried by 6"

Here is the relvant maryland penial code:

§ 4-203

…

(c) (1) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to the penalties provided in this subsection.

(2) If the person has not previously been convicted under this section, § 4-204 of this subtitle, or § 4-101 or § 4-102 of this title:

(i) except as provided in item (ii) of this paragraph, the person is subject to imprisonment for not less than 30 days and not exceeding 3 years or a fine of not less than $250 and not exceeding $2,500 or both; but

(ii) if it appears from the evidence that the handgun was worn, carried, or transported on public school property in the State, the person shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not less than 90 days.

(3) (i) If the person has previously been convicted once under this section, § 4-204 of this subtitle, or § 4-101 or § 4-102 of this title, the person shall be sentenced:

1. to imprisonment for not less than 1 year and not exceeding 10 years; but

2. if it appears from the evidence that the handgun was worn, carried, or transported on public school property in the State, to imprisonment for not less than 3 years and not exceeding 10 years.

(ii) The court may not impose less than the applicable minimum sentence provided under subparagraph (i) of this paragraph.

(4) (i) If the person has previously been convicted more than once under this section, § 4-204 of this subtitle, or § 4-101 or § 4-102 of this title, or of any combination of these crimes, the person shall be sentenced:

1. to imprisonment for not less than 3 years and not exceeding 10 years; but

2. A. if it appears from the evidence that the handgun was worn, carried, or transported on public school property in the State, to imprisonment for not less than 5 years and not exceeding 10 years; or

B. if it appears from the evidence that the handgun was worn, carried, or transported with the deliberate purpose of injuring or killing another person, to imprisonment for not less than 5 years and not exceeding 10 years.

(ii) The court may not impose less than the applicable minimum sentence provided under subparagraph (i) of this paragraph.

The full text can be found here at MILS

Chris

 

[Tall Man]

sounds like theres a job for a shabbes goy with a gun

Be careful, Mr. Tuttle. Some of us find such references to be unpalatable. It's no better than suggesting that Christians who keep the Sabbath should solicit Harry the Hebe to run their Sunday errands for them.

TM

 

[The Rabbi]

Tall Man must be a MOT. I have never heard a non-Jew object to the term. I wouldnt use it myself, btw.

 

[Tall Man]

I don't know what the "MOT" reference stands for. I suppose I am in unfamiliar territory since I don't have the peculiar habit of abbreviating every other word or phrase in my posts - save for my user name at the end of each post, which I consider innocuous.

And, consider me the first non-Jew (in your sphere of experience) to object to the term shabbos goy. I know what it means, and I don't like it.

chaim - I have great respect for the discipline you exhibit in keeping the Sabbath. More than once have I looked to Orthodox customs as a model for my own behavior on Sundays.

TM

 

[Old Fuff]

chaim:

I had a thought ...

By prearrangement, could you and others walk together in relatively large rather then small groups to discourage these kinds of attacks? There is strength in numbers.

 

[1911 guy]

My .02$

I'll give my two cents (worth that or less) for two reasons. First, it's not good to have folks accosted by would be robbers while walking home from a place of worship or anywhere else. Second, I consider Judaism to be the foundation of my faith and have respect for it. Now my second rate opinion. You are walking home from the synagogue (sp?) and have been harrassed once and missed being harrassed another time only by changing your normal route. As the thugs have a higher presence in the area than the law, your chances of needing said handgun are higher than the chances of needing to explain yourself to an officer.

 

[DorGunR]

Chaim I'm glad to hear that you're OK.........this surprises me as I thought Columbia was a fairly safe city.

I don't have any suggestions other than...........do what you have to do to stay safe.

 

[Tinker]

Chaim,

You said: " I can just imagine what would have happened if they found the pepper spray and knife." And you also made mention of not being able to carry an item that would not be used during Sabbath.

Is a sheath type knife something that could be used on the Sabbath? If so, then I'd suggest a slim "neck knife". These hang from a lanyard like a necklace, under your clothes. Not near the protection of a gun in your pocket, but better than nothing. A person trained in the combat use of knife can be very effective in self preservation.

Also, I liked reading your posts. Very informative. Real interesting was your evolution to your present beliefs. Thanks for sharing and I wish you well.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

FYI, FWIW: "MOT" is "Member Of (the) Tribe" -- an inside joke among Jews.

---

Matt Payne
Heeled Hebe

 

[Harry Tuttle]

I thought Columbia was a fairly safe city.

Columbia Maryland, a town so nice, they had to import the criminals.

 

[chaim]

Chaim I'm glad to hear that you're OK.........this surprises me as I thought Columbia was a fairly safe city.

Columbia isn't bad (though as Harry Tuttle says, we did import some criminals- when Baltimore knocked down the projects about a decade ago and gave them vouchers for housing in the burbs, many ended up in Columbia....today there is also a lot, comparatively speaking, of crime against and from the large number of illegal aliens who seem to have settled here). However, on the sabbath I usually stay with friends in the Baltimore community.

You said: " I can just imagine what would have happened if they found the pepper spray and knife." And you also made mention of not being able to carry an item that would not be used during Sabbath.

Is a sheath type knife something that could be used on the Sabbath?

A knife isn't something that could normally be used (with the exception of silverware and kitchen knives used for food) on the sabbath. However, again for self-defense often times exceptions could be made. But again, against three guys at least one who was armed with a gun, I don't think a knife and pepper spray would have done much good and if they searched me (as they did the victims of this crime) I suspect having those items found may have made matters worse.

In fact this situation has me rethinking my regular carry of a defensive pocket knife and pepper spray as long as I'm in MD. In a CCW state where you have a gun on you it is prudent to carry pepper spray and a knife for situations that don't call for a gun. However, in MD and other non-CCW states, having a knife or pepper spray won't do much good if facing a BG with a gun and I never really thought about the possibility of being searched by the BG in the past. At minimum I would expect their finding a weapon would make them a bit more agitated and likely to at least use the found weapon on you, and possibly shooting you. So, I'm rethinking whether it is smart to carry anything in a state where I can't carry armament equivelent to what the BGs will have.

 

[Norton]

Chaim,

Glad to hear that you escaped any confrontation. It's a darned shame that Baltimore is continuing to get worse and worse with regards to crime. It's scary that it's become so brazen. Glad I made my escape to the south......

Are we going to see you on Wednesday the 6th at On Target?

 

[Hawken50]

care bear-

I have gone round and round with some of my friends from church over the Christian morality of carrying weapons, in and out of church

sorry if this makes me sound ignorant, i'm not religious by any stretch, but doesn't it say somewhere in the bible, "let he who does not have a sword sell his clothes and buy one." or something along those lines? maybe it's not the bible but something else?

 

[DorGunR]

Not trying to hi-jack this thread but............
Norton posted:
Are we going to see you on Wednesday the 6th at On Target?

Is this the On Target near Fort Meade?? If so I'll be there as I have a new pistol I've never shot.

 

[chaim]

Are we going to see you on Wednesday the 6th at On Target?

Probably, though I can't say for sure. My last day at my job was last Friday, and the job I thought I had lined up ended up not coming through (they told me they thought they had the budget for 2 positions but only got the budget for one and there was supposedly one person more qualified than I). Anyway, it depends upon my schedule (whether I have a new position lined up, if I have an interview that gets in the way, or if I'm out of state since I'm also looking for work in Pittsburgh, Phily, and the NYC area).

 

[Burt Blade]

Are shoes clothing or tool? Both shoes and handguns are for protection from the hazards of the road. A hard shoe is also a weapon when the desperate man kicks.

If life is to be preserved, how would you reasonably aid another from an attacker on the Sabbath if you left the sidearm at home? If thugs were Sabbath keepers, this would make more sense to me.

I suppose there is some religious explanation for all that, but to me it seems that life on Thursday afternoon is just as valuable as on any other day. I would feel derelict in what I believe is my own duty were I to deliberately handicap my ability to help someone on one day each week.

The nice thing about the USA is that we are free to disagree on such topics, and, more importantly, differ in our implementation of our differing viewpoints.

 

[carebear]

Hawken,

As my pastor told me, we have to be careful going into Scripture looking for justification for something we want to do anyway.

The disagreement isn't about the morality of self-defense per se, Scripture, both Judaic and Christian is pretty clear it's a-ok.

The question revolves around whether one who goes armed all the time is being sensibly proactive, a good steward of his and others safety (my position) OR if by arming myself regularly I am somehow denying the L--d's ability to protect me if that is His will. Which could be a symptom of a lack of surrendered heart and faith.

I think that is a specious position, and shows a lack of using the good sense G-d gave a goose. If it's my time, all the training and hardware won't avail me anyway. If it isn't, then whether I am armed or not is again irrelevent and being armed is just good planning.

However, I view it as my responsibility to do my part. As the punchline says, "Honey, do me a favor. Buy a TICKET."

 

[Norton]

DorGunR,

On Target is the range on Rt 175 near Ft. Meade, as you said.

Chaim,
If you decide on Pittsburgh, let me know. Wife did one of her degrees at Duquesne and I know the city pretty well.

 

[280PLUS]

Just a side thought to this very interesting thread. My knowledge of the Jewish faith is very limited. I couldn't even tell you which holiday is which or what they represent. Well, except for Channuka. All I know is you guys got those days off from school AND the Christian holidays as well It just didn't seem fair...



Anyhow, it seems to me that if you live or operate in a rough neighborhood and all the criminals know that the Jews walking to Sabbath on Saturday are most likely completely unarmed, you are placed at a distinct disadvantage.

Of course, if you look at it another way, they should also know you have no money either.

Dumb question: If you are not allowed to carry keys, how do you secure your residence while at Temple?

 

[The Rabbi]

Dumb question: If you are not allowed to carry keys, how do you secure your residence while at Temple?

It was only dumb before you asked it. Now that you've asked it it is a good question.
Either you leave a key hidden by the door somewhere. Or people have developed a special belt where the key is an integral part of the belt, and doubles as a key too.

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

It is reasonable for me to fear that if I speak too much on this subject, I will either insult or alienate religious people here on this forum, and as I don't wish to do this, so I must keep this terse.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand or agree with the limitations that religious people of certain persuasions impose upon themselves -- particularly under the notion that God requires such behavior of them.

This is why I live a completely areligious life. Some say that atheists like me cannot have any morality, cannot be "good people," etc., to which I say, "Nuts!" I am just as good and moral as the next person, even though I don't have a God, because anyone can be taught what is good and kind. I was taught what is good and kind. I respect and understand the inherent benefits of being good to my fellow man, and living within reasonable social constructs of good/evil, right/wrong. What's more, I think that my own morality is a bit better developed than that of the average religious person's, because it is based on the recognition that in order to have a peaceful life here on earth, we have to abide by certain rules and agreements; the religious person does it because he's expecting a reward later on from God -- and who knows what he would do, or consider himself free to do, on earth if it were not for fear of punishment.

But it appears that the rules of Judaism that Chaim lays out for us here, as they are interpreted and applied by him to his own life, cause great potential for difficulty, and even danger. I just don't see the point in living by rules that say you have to be essentially sedentary on the "sabbath." Why would God require of people to essentially shut down their lives for a day, once a week? I swear, it seems every Orthodox Jew I have ever known twisted the rules of Judaism in whatever way they saw fit, and somehow managed to convince him/herself that they were doing it God's way, and they had it all right. One guy I knew in college would put his t.v. on before sundown on Friday, so that it would be on like he wanted all through the sabbath day. Sure, according to the rules, he couldn't "use" the t.v. -- couldn't turn it on or off, or change channels -- but he was doing a clever little circumventing of God's rules in order to pacify his desire for human comfort and entertainment.

Trying to play-off a technicality on God... Unwise, I would imagine...

-Jeffrey

 

[The Rabbi]

I cannot, for the life of me, understand or agree with the limitations that religious people of certain persuasions impose upon themselves -- particularly under the notion that God requires such behavior of them.

You are right. You cannot understand it and probably never will. Thus you really can't add anything to this discussion, which assumes the underlying legitimacy of one's religious practices and beliefs.

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

FYI, FWIW: "MOT" is "Member Of (the) Tribe" -- an inside joke among Jews.

---

Matt Payne
Heeled Hebe

In that case, it should just be, "MT". Articles do not get capitalized and represented in acronyms, so why would the "of" be included any more than the "t" of "the"?


As an aside, Matt (and others): to some of us, the reflexive use of the word "Hebe," which if it came from a non-Jew would be considered derogatory--an epithet, is similar in annoyance to the way blacks refer to themselves with the term "n***er" but claim that it is derogatory and offensive when anyone else uses it.

I mean, would it be acceptable if the Jews on this forum jokingly referred to themselves as "kikes"? I imagine if a "goy" like me used the same term, he'd run into trouble for it.

-Jeffrey

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

A knife isn't something that could normally be used (with the exception of silverware and kitchen knives used for food) on the sabbath. However, again for self-defense often times exceptions could be made. But again, against three guys at least one who was armed with a gun, I don't think a knife and pepper spray would have done much good and if they searched me (as they did the victims of this crime) I suspect having those items found may have made matters worse.

In fact this situation has me rethinking my regular carry of a defensive pocket knife and pepper spray as long as I'm in MD. In a CCW state where you have a gun on you it is prudent to carry pepper spray and a knife for situations that don't call for a gun. However, in MD and other non-CCW states, having a knife or pepper spray won't do much good if facing a BG with a gun and I never really thought about the possibility of being searched by the BG in the past. At minimum I would expect their finding a weapon would make them a bit more agitated and likely to at least use the found weapon on you, and possibly shooting you. So, I'm rethinking whether it is smart to carry anything in a state where I can't carry armament equivelent to what the BGs will have.

My impression, from this, is that you are thinking more and more like a victim.
"If I can't carry a gun, I shouldn't carry anything that could be used as a lesser defensive implement."

Well, what about the fact that pepper spray could be effective if you were accosted by a couple of 16-year-old non-armed thugs? Why are you locking on to the idea that the only thing you might have to defend against would be some dude with a gun?

The resignation in your post is kind of troubling. That's why I say you are thinking like a victim. There is an element of appeasement in your post that I find disturbing. Like you're afraid of angering or bothering the guy who's robbing you. Like you're prepared to just accede to being searched for weapons by some lowlife degenerate thug, and you feel you had better not do anything to annoy him or he might just hurt you. Well, DO SOMETHING to keep him from hurting you. This hoping-he-decides-of-his-own-accord-to-leave-you-robbed-but-unharmed thing is for the dogs...

-Jeffrey

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

It was only dumb before you asked it. Now that you've asked it it is a good question.
Either you leave a key hidden by the door somewhere. Or people have developed a special belt where the key is an integral part of the belt, and doubles as a key too.

Once again, like my example of the friend of mine who would leave his t.v. "conveniently" on through the sabbath, this seems to me like an obvious attempt at catching God on a technicality -- something I'm confident he would not appreciate.

If the key is carried, or worn on a belt, or left under the mat, what is the difference?? It's still gonna be used to open the door, right? Where is the line drawn, anyway? And more importantly, WHY?

-Jeffrey