Viability of *Real* Pocket (And Micro) Handguns in Today’s World

[Alex Clayton]

Thanks, I’d def like a pocket .22 like that. Regarding the LCP I, it seems maybe the older releases were the 100% reliable ones. One thing that’s been discussed elsewhere is that with the new factory, and a large increase in gun sales and production, some QC may be going down. Not just for Ruger. I really wanted my LCP .380 to work. I cleaned it, lubed it, very carefully made sure not to limp wrist it, used 4 different types of ammo. The only ammo it ran well with was Hornady critical defense.

Sadly that does not surprise me. I had often wondered about the QC when this latest panic went of for a while. When Companies start running 24/7 trying to keep up it would be easy to let that important part slip. Now with no one wanting to take a damn job that has to be a problem too. Everyone one I deal with seems to be having the same problem. Jobs that pay well and used to be highly sought after still seem to have a hard time finding people to fill them now

 

[Alex Clayton]

According to many internet warriors, it’s totally unacceptable that you aren’t carrying a 44 magnum. Why won’t you at least carry a Glock 19 please?!

When this comes up on the web, as it does fairly often, I am quite sure its like how well people can shoot. All my life I have heard many talk how well they could shoot. Things like sights on a pistol are stupid and such. Then for most of the people when you get them to the range they for some reason can't hardly stay on the paper.
So I am sure most of the "I will only carry (insert larger caliber) really do not do what they claim. What a LOT of them really do is often just leave with no gun. Since its some "quick trip" or such. Most will do this their entire life and will not matter. Since most of us go our life and never need a gun. Hey it sounds great on the net though

 

[Lnf Crzr]

I take my most often carried 44 spl 18oz Scandium with me most of the time. Yet sometime I just don’t want any gun to lug around. In those cases I’ll take my 10oz 8 shot 22lr with every other chamber loaded with Stingers and 60gr SSS. It’s a up close and personal gun. I certainly wouldn’t want to be shot by it… even if it’s a Pocket gun. Viable or not…. And Sometimes I carry both.

 

[Autodidactic]

When this comes up on the web, as it does fairly often, I am quite sure its like how well people can shoot. All my life I have heard many talk how well they could shoot. Things like sights on a pistol are stupid and such. Then for most of the people when you get them to the range they for some reason can't hardly stay on the paper.
So I am sure most of the "I will only carry (insert larger caliber) really do not do what they claim. What a LOT of them really do is often just leave with no gun. Since its some "quick trip" or such. Most will do this their entire life and will not matter. Since most of us go our life and never need a gun. Hey it sounds great on the net though

Right, rather than simply admitting that often it's better to have that micro pistol brought with as it's comfortable or concealable, or that some people for various reasons need a lighter recoil handgun (non-service caliber). My friend, what I've learned is there are only two options and realities (according to PHDs online). You can either be unarmed and ripe for the picking, or you can carry a subcompact or larger service caliber gun at all times, everywhere. There are no viable options or considerations in between, ever.

I think we can comfortably close down this thread now that this question has been settled for all time.

 

[trackskippy]

Right, rather than simply admitting that often it's better to have that micro pistol brought with as it's comfortable or concealable, or that some people for various reasons need a lighter recoil handgun (non-service caliber). My friend, what I've learned is there are only two options and realities (according to PHDs online). You can either be unarmed and ripe for the picking, or you can carry a subcompact or larger service caliber gun at all times, everywhere. There are no viable options or considerations in between, ever.

I think we can comfortably close down this thread now that this question has been settled for all time.

Youre going under the assumption that you cant carry and/or conceal a larger gun, not sure based on what.

The smaller guns are almost always harder to get a hold of quickly and positively, harder to shoot well with, usually have harsher recoil, even in the smaller calibers, because they are blowback. The larger guns, even in the larger calibers, are often more comfortable to shoot with due to being locked breech and having grips that you can get a good hold on and handle the recoil better.

If you think the smaller guns are more appropriate, it would be interesting to hear what you are basing things on, and what you do to stay on top of things with it. Ive carried a number of them in the past, as backups, and shot them from how they were carried in regular practice, and other than a very narrow zone of usefulness, they were/are really not something that is a realistic choice for a primary gun that will handle a lot of situations.

What makes you ripe for the pickings is, a lack of training and skill. What you carry really isnt the thing here, its you, and what you can realistically do with what you choose, and in any situation.

We dont get to pick the fight, but we do have to deal with it as best we can if and when it comes. No one can tell you when that will happen, and hopefully, youre prepared for what you get, and you brought both an appropriate gun, and the skills to use it along with you.

I dont know how you look at this but Ive always looked at it as a lifestyle/package deal sort of thing. Its done on a daily basis, and its just another thing on my person that is there if I need it. Its no big deal, and its easily done.

Its also done with something that I shoot well with, and practice with on a regular and realistic basis, and I know will allow me to cover as much as possible that might pop up, not just one or two narrow scenarios.

 

[Kleanbore]

What makes you ripe for the pickings is, a lack of training and skill. What you carry really isnt the thing here, its you, and what you can realistically do with what you choose, and in any situation.

That bears repeating.

Those who choose a carry piece really should see how they do with it in realistic training drills--detecting a threat somewhere on the compass, reacting, drawing while moving off line, and scoring several hits with combat accuracy very quickly. The micro pistols are not well suited for that.

Now, if our sole objective were to ace shooting drills in a training class, we would likely do best tin a service size pistol with a long sight radius, good sized grip, and low felt recoil.

But there's also this the need to wear it all day, every day, concealed. Many of us want something smaller and lighter. It's the art of compromise.

We dont get to pick the fight, but we do have to deal with it as best we can if and when it comes. No one can tell you when that will happen, and hopefully, youre prepared for what you get, and you brought both an appropriate gun, and the skills to use it along with you.

Yes indeed.

 

[chicharrones]

I can remember many of the folks in my first CHL (LTC) class here in Texas in 2008. There were at least 2 dozen of us of all ages and backgrounds. 4 of them I knew, and still know, personally.

At that time it was not beneficial to take the shooting qualification with a revolver as it would exclude you from having a license for an autoloader. The law has changed since then, if I remember correctly.

So, here we all are with 1/2 the class on the line with service sized and compact sized autoloaders in the low ready, and the other 1/2 of the class behind them handing forward loaded magazines between shot sequences. Not a person in the class took the qualification with a pocket gun. No revolvers either, due to the licensing situation mentioned above.

When it came time to actually carry, all 5 of us ended up buying pocket guns after trying IWB or other methods. All of us have or had day jobs that were not LEO related. Three of us carried and the other two didn't carry except on "special" occasions. It became apparent that both situations (pocket guns or not carrying) are common with licensees.

I also have a co-worker that got an LTC a few years ago. He qualified with a compact, but now pocket carries.

One of my sisters in law has a single stack compact 9mm that she qualified with for an LTC in 2020. She bought a purse with internal holster and she carries that compact 9mm everywhere, so far. But, that purse tends to get set down all the time which is virtually the same as belt/holster carriers taking their holster off and on all day.

Just last month, one of my neighbors who has never carried before (but a long time hunter) got his LTC. He was proudly open carrying his new Glock 17 that he used in his class to qualify with. He was already seeking to downsize. I will be interested to find out what his choice will be as he too has a day job that puts him in positions that make carrying guns difficult.

Thinking back on this, out of these 7 common citizens (I make #8), two weren't gun people at all. Two were gun owners, but not gun people. Four were gun people, but none in this group were LEO and only one a veteran.

"Daily" gun carry count for these folks* stands at:
Pocket all the time = 3
Pocket when they carry = 2
Purse = 1
Undecided = 1
chicharrones = Pocket 95% of the time with options for other.

*2 females, 6 males

 

[Kleanbore]

hen it came time to actually carry, all 5 of us ended up buying pocket guns after trying IWB or other methods. All of us have or had day jobs that were not LEO related. Three of us carried and the other two didn't carry except on "special" occasions. It became apparent that both situations (pocket guns or not carrying) are common with licensees.

Just about every person whom I know who received CCW training selected their handgun on the basis of minimal size and weight. Protected they felt.

Every person I know how who has availed themself of realistic defensive training has selected something larger.

 

[Alex Clayton]

I can remember many of the folks in my first CHL (LTC) class here in Texas in 2008. There were at least 2 dozen of us of all ages and backgrounds. 4 of them I knew, and still know, personally.

At that time it was not beneficial to take the shooting qualification with a revolver as it would exclude you from having a license for an autoloader. The law has changed since then, if I remember correctly.

So, here we all are with 1/2 the class on the line with service sized and compact sized autoloaders in the low ready, and the other 1/2 of the class behind them handing forward loaded magazines between shot sequences. Not a person in the class took the qualification with a pocket gun. No revolvers either, due to the licensing situation mentioned above.

When it came time to actually carry, all 5 of us ended up buying pocket guns after trying IWB or other methods. All of us have or had day jobs that were not LEO related. Three of us carried and the other two didn't carry except on "special" occasions. It became apparent that both situations (pocket guns or not carrying) are common with licensees.

I also have a co-worker that got an LTC a few years ago. He qualified with a compact, but now pocket carries.

One of my sisters in law has a single stack compact 9mm that she qualified with for an LTC in 2020. She bought a purse with internal holster and she carries that compact 9mm everywhere, so far. But, that purse tends to get set down all the time which is virtually the same as belt/holster carriers taking their holster off and on all day.

Just last month, one of my neighbors who has never carried before (but a long time hunter) got his LTC. He was proudly open carrying his new Glock 17 that he used in his class to qualify with. He was already seeking to downsize. I will be interested to find out what his choice will be as he too has a day job that puts him in positions that make carrying guns difficult.

Thinking back on this, out of these 7 common citizens (I make #8), two weren't gun people at all. Two were gun owners, but not gun people. Four were gun people, but none in this group were LEO and only one a veteran.

"Daily" gun carry count for these folks* stands at:
Pocket all the time = 3
Pocket when they carry = 2
Purse = 1
Undecided = 1
chicharrones = Pocket 95% of the time with options for other.

*2 females, 6 males

The Practice, or sadly often lack of it, is a VERY common thing. Here to get a permit (CPL) you just go down and pay your money and ask. This of course does lead to many who really have no idea what they are doing. Of course for the vast majority it will never matter as they never need to shoot anyone. For those who do? It of course sadly is often not good. This sadly often is not much better with LEO's though. Many of them carry because its a tool they have to have. They qualify when they need to, shooting at paper. Look how many video's there are now of one getting into a real "gun fight" were a LOT of rounds are fired and few if any hit the target. Its not anything like most think it is in real life. Often when I watch some of these video's I am left wondering where the hell did all those rounds end up?

 

[chicharrones]

Just about very person whom I know who received CCW training selected their handgun on thee basis of minimal size and weight. Protected they felt.

For me, I don't feel protected. I simply feel like I have a different "last resort" option than if I had no firearm.

People around here with nothing to lose don't tend to run from seeing a gun held by a common citizen.

 

[Kleanbore]

For me, I don't feel protected. I simply feel like I have different "last resort" option than if I had no firearm.

People around here with nothing to lose don't tend to run from seeing a gun held by a common citizen.

Gotcha.

 

[Alex Clayton]

For me, I don't feel protected. I simply feel like I have different "last resort" option than if I had no firearm.

People around here with nothing to lose don't tend to run from seeing a gun held by a common citizen.

YES!!!!
I have carried at work all my life. Many jobs getting "caught" meant getting fired. So I of course did not pack my "favorite" gun. For a long time only gun was a NAA .22. My idea? If I was trapped, no way out, I could at least stay in some corner, or room. If dobad comes in before the good guys? At least I had a shot. Beats sitting in the corner waiting my turn to be the fish in the barrel.

 

[Autodidactic]

Youre going under the assumption that you cant carry and/or conceal a larger gun, not sure based on what.

The smaller guns are almost always harder to get a hold of quickly and positively, harder to shoot well with, usually have harsher recoil, even in the smaller calibers, because they are blowback. The larger guns, even in the larger calibers, are often more comfortable to shoot with due to being locked breech and having grips that you can get a good hold on and handle the recoil better.

If you think the smaller guns are more appropriate, it would be interesting to hear what you are basing things on, and what you do to stay on top of things with it. Ive carried a number of them in the past, as backups, and shot them from how they were carried in regular practice, and other than a very narrow zone of usefulness, they were/are really not something that is a realistic choice for a primary gun that will handle a lot of situations.

What makes you ripe for the pickings is, a lack of training and skill. What you carry really isnt the thing here, its you, and what you can realistically do with what you choose, and in any situation.

We dont get to pick the fight, but we do have to deal with it as best we can if and when it comes. No one can tell you when that will happen, and hopefully, youre prepared for what you get, and you brought both an appropriate gun, and the skills to use it along with you.

I dont know how you look at this but Ive always looked at it as a lifestyle/package deal sort of thing. Its done on a daily basis, and its just another thing on my person that is there if I need it. Its no big deal, and its easily done.

Its also done with something that I shoot well with, and practice with on a regular and realistic basis, and I know will allow me to cover as much as possible that might pop up, not just one or two narrow scenarios.

I’m not, and I do conceal larger handguns at times. I also pursue training, and frequent practice. This is a general discussion. People can accept that many people don’t want to pack larger handguns, or that many don’t want a micro pistol with heavy recoil, or not accept this fact. It’s just the reality. A better approach is encouraging people to buy a reliable, reasonable quality gun, to get training, carry what they feel comfortable with, and practice. This is more preparation than your average firearm owner. Certainly it’s more readiness than the substantial group who either doesn’t own a gun or doesn’t carry. These pocket guns exist and are popular for a reason. They wouldn’t be so if they weren’t.

My kid’s mom bought a Sig 365 after the covid insanity and after being chased alone on a hike. She never practices with it more than a handful of times. She doesn’t carry. I’d much rather she was willing to carry a .22 LCR or pocket .32 than nothing at all.

For people that are serious about preparation and defense, and able to carry it, yes a larger handgun with a better caliber is more readiness. I myself carry service calibers arguably a majority of the time. My home defense set up is a 9 mm and a 12 gauge.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

In today’s environment, with today’s offerings; is the spectacular concealment capability worth the trade-off in cartridge, capacity, and handling ?

What about "today's environment" would invalidate or obviate such a "spectacular concealment capability"?

It's not as if these are out-and-out replacements for otherwise more suitable guns. They simply offer some alternatives that other firearms may not be able to provide.

I consider them as supplementary alternatives which give one options they might not otherwise have.

 

[MedWheeler]

trackskippy writes:

This afternoon, you will be in a gunfight of someone elses choosing. You have a pick of two guns, A SIG P226, or a Ruger LCP. What do you choose?

Careful, its a trick question.

Yes, it is. The day you posed the question, I was at work, as am I now. I work in a no-carry, uniformed profession. A Ruger LCP-MAX did leave the house with me this morning (and that morning.) It leaves the house with me every day. When I'm not working, it's a second gun, backing up a Taurus G2C (and being backed up itself by a North American Arms .22LR revolver.)

The truth is, I will not get into a gunfight this afternoon unless someone hands me a gun as it begins, since I'm not going to be carrying. Being armed is prohibited on duty in EMS in Florida (except for "tactical" medics attached to LE SWAT teams.) When I get off work, it will be nighttime. The Ruger, with its thirteen rounds on board, will be in my pocket again, just like it was on the way in this morning.

If you're asking which of the two guns I would choose if offered such a choice as the gunfight was beginning, well, yeah, that's an easy choice. However, if I can have someone follow me around to carry guns for me when I'm barred from doing so myself, I may as well have him tote several.

If you're asking which I would have taken from home were I in the practice of carrying on the job despite the prohibition, well, that would be an easy choice, too.

I addressed the question based on firsthand knowledge of my own situation, not speculation on the part of anyone else.

 

[desmobob]

I’m referring to truly tiny handguns in various .22 rimfire cartridges, .25 Auto, and .32 Auto. The Baby Browning, NAA Guardians, Seecamp, NAA mini revolvers, pocket Berettas, etc; maximum size of about the Ruger LCP (original). Block 42, Sig 365, etc are exempt from this discussion, mainly due to size and caliber. I’m referring to handguns that will readily fit in a shirt’s breast pocket.

In today’s environment, with today’s offerings; is the spectacular concealment capability worth the trade-off in cartridge, capacity, and handling ?

There are likely better choices offered today, but when carrying even a tiny Kahr CW9 is inconvenient, I sometimes pocket a Beretta 950 .25ACP. Better than nothing...

 

[JEBruns]

So I am sure most of the "I will only carry (insert larger caliber) really do not do what they claim. What a LOT of them really do is often just leave with no gun. Since its some "quick trip" or such. Most will do this their entire life and will not matter. Since most of us go our life and never need a gun. Hey it sounds great on the net though

I've read that only a very small percentage of CC license holders actually carry all the time. Like 5-10%. I always say that if you can't find a comfortable way to carry, you're not going to do it very long. I pocket carry a P229 RX in a sticky holster. Duluth Trading cargo pants/shorts allow for that setup. It is very comfortable for me so I carry 100% of the time, and I practice. A lot. My wife got her CC at the same time I did. Has purchased a lot of guns and invested in a lot of ways to carry it, looking for that perfect carry combo. But she has not found a combo that is comfortable all the time, and pretty much never carries.

If a .22 is comfortable enough to allow you to carry all the time, I'm all for it. I agree with those that say they'd rather have any gun in a gun fight, than none at all.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

I know a guy, good friend; he’s gone through several dozen handguns, from compact to pocket sized; variety of holsters, and finally settled on a factory G42 with a Desantis pocket holster. When asked why he doesn’t carry a G43, he states that any trade-off for cartridge capability is overcome by the ability to make rapid, ludicrously easy follow-up shots. He was a combat medic, and dealt with countless injuries, in addition to being stationed on one of the hospital ships for a tour, if I understood him right. Outside of any medical professionals here, he probably knows more about gunshots and the human body than most... so if it works for him, who am I to argue ?

 

[trackskippy]

What works for him? The gun? The caliber? His knowledge of gunshots and anatomy? All important things, and still missing a few. Like, more importantly, what about his skill with the gun. His ability to quickly draw and repetitively make good hits, on-demand, without thinking about doing it. There is so much more to all of this than just having "a gun".

This is a package deal. You need a realistic gun, and realistic skills to go along with it. The more inappropriate the gun, the more the level of difficulty goes up, and the more your skill level needs to go up to compensate if it even can. Is this really all that hard to comprehend?

If you doubt this, its real simple to shake out, at a low-intensity level. Take the gun you carry to a local combat type match, and run the course of fire with it, from how you normally carry it and see how you do. And dont run it like a match or fun thing to do, run it like "its your turn in the barrel" and you either live or die by the results.

Im all for people carrying a gun. What scares the crap out of me is, all the people carrying guns who have no skill or real experience with them, who dont/wont continually work hard at getting better and maintaining proficiency with them, and thinking they are well armed and ready to deal with whatever comes. Its those people who are likely going to be more dangerous, to themselves and to others, than the threat they say they are worried about.

 

[LiveLife]

good friend ... combat medic ... he’s gone through several dozen handguns ... settled on a factory G42 ... When asked why he doesn’t carry a G43, he states that any trade-off for cartridge capability is overcome by the ability to make rapid, ludicrously easy follow-up shots ... he probably knows more about gunshots

Not sure if he saw many gunshot wounds with .380 Auto in combat ...

Anyways, I was a medic in the Army who also worked in surgery ... But what do I know about gunshot wounds.

I did shoot over 650,000 pistol rounds out of countless different pistols including USPSA matches and have done extensive load development and various myth busting threads for the "Handloading & Reloading" subcategory of THR and taught hundreds of people to shoot and reload, including point shooting - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-5#post-11672875

What I do know is that while .380 Auto operates at around 20,000 PSI, 9mm operates at higher 33,000 PSI and in my opinion only, consider 9mm operating at higher velocity even with heavier bullet is superior to .380 Auto.

And I have shot .380 Auto pistols and it is also my opinion that many 9mm platforms provide better recoil control for faster follow up shots. And yes, I have run the same USPSA stages with various .380 Auto pistols and 9mm/40S&W compacts and subcompacts to tell you that shot placement and group size was much better with 9mm/40S&W pistols.

And holes on target speak volumes as missed shots won't produce gun shot wounds.

 

[Hoppes Love Potion]

Past a certain age it becomes simpler - just go fanny packs front and rear, carry anything you want.

 

[Autodidactic]

I've read that only a very small percentage of CC license holders actually carry all the time. Like 5-10%. I always say that if you can't find a comfortable way to carry, you're not going to do it very long. I pocket carry a P229 RX in a sticky holster. Duluth Trading cargo pants/shorts allow for that setup. It is very comfortable for me so I carry 100% of the time, and I practice. A lot. My wife got her CC at the same time I did. Has purchased a lot of guns and invested in a lot of ways to carry it, looking for that perfect carry combo. But she has not found a combo that is comfortable all the time, and pretty much never carries.

If a .22 is comfortable enough to allow you to carry all the time, I'm all for it. I agree with those that say they'd rather have any gun in a gun fight, than none at all.

Interesting stat on always carry. I probably am at about 60-70% carry right now. I mainly carry not just because of risk of normative crime, but because of the insanity of current events over the past year or two. I don't want to be caught without something if things accelerate suddenly.

But, to your point, a lot of people don't carry often and in many cases, at all. Part of that reason I'm sure is ease of carry. A lot of people, no matter how much purists browbeat them for it, aren't ready to carry large or powerful firearms.

Something I just thought of too. A lot of first-time handgun buyers get a typical self-defense handgun for the house such as a revolver or a Glock 19. But that's not necessarily what they are comfortable carrying if they begin investigating that. It would take another buy to get a smaller, easily concealable gun.

 

[dogtown tom]

....... I’m referring to handguns that will readily fit in a shirt’s breast pocket.....

Why a shirt pocket?
I can't think of a worse place to carry a handgun. Even Barny Fife knew it wasn't where he should carry his one round.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

I have a nice Eddy Bauer winter coat I enjoy wearing. (Ya I know, “511 is better” and All that double stack stuff). On my Left Breast exterior I have a pocket (Cell Phone pocket) that Can be left unzipped as it’s a deep pocket -I can even reach in with weak side hand if need. Inside that I have a sticky pocket holster and my S&W 317 8 shot 22lr with 4 CCI stingers and 4 SSS 60gr’s every other chamber. (Not all guns are for self defense)
Unless I stand on my head, The firearm stays put. Yet I can zip and unzip pocket with ease as I’ve extended it with braided paracord and few beads.

On my hip is a Heavy hitter 44 spl , 357mag or “Tap/Tap” Glock 19. When I drive I can access that breast pocket quick.

It’s not a perfect set up- or the best caliber…. Yet that’s MY choice and I feel it’s sufficient.

There ya go , a breast best Pocket Gun example that I feel is Viable.

Ps -I’m sure Critiques will occur about that choice or caliber. —Ok ….Don’t carry one!

 

[PzGren]

Both my sons carry Ruger LCPs as gym guns, mostly for the short distance from the gym to the parked car. Imagine, you'd work night shifts in a work environment in downtown Cleveland, where firearms are not allowed to be brought inside but the parking garage is a couple of blocks away. Wouldn't a Ruger LCP in .380 ACP feel better and add more reach and punch than a clenched fist?