Vietnam-Era Shotguns

[AeroDillo]

Worth noting is that the Model 12 trench gun uses a distinctly different magazine tube than the standard models, though a conventional tube can be made to work.

Also, performing a conversion will negate the ability to quickly and easily take the gun in half.

 

[Vlad3572]

We used 870s in the 9th ID.

 

[DPris]

We "qualified" with Model 12s in AF Tech School at Lackland in '72 as SPs.
I never saw another AF shotgun again during four years at two US bases & one base in England.
Denis

 

[CoalTrain49]

Model 12's were high maintenance and expensive to build. Nice shotgun but not something that would make a reliable combat weapon. The 870 is still in production because they are the strongest and simple in design. The M12 left us in 64. I still examine every one I see because I know what they are and how they were built. Never owned one but they were the cadillac of pump guns in their day. Nothing more than a simplified model 97 which isn't saying much for it's simplicity. Ithaca 37 was a lightweight marvel.

 

[Dog Soldier]

I was employed by a Government Contractor in the last years of the Vietnam conflict. We transported arms and related items to South East Asia. This included S&W revolvers.M-1 Garands converted to .308 etc.
One of the eye catchers was the beautifully crafted A-5 Browning shotguns. we transported hundreds of these from Browning's distribution center in Arnold, Missouri to S.E. Asia. We had 50 of these hijacked in Evansville, Indiana. Our security was so tight the bandits were arrested with in a matter of hours.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=699

 

[RPRNY]

So, the most bizarre Vietnam era military shotgun has to be the H&R single shot 12ga, "Special Forces Model". These were 28" barreled 12ga models with a parkerized finish and marked "Special Forces Model" on them. The barrel appears to be marked "3 3/4 Full" but that seems quite odd given that the 3.5" shell wasn't produced until the mid 1980s. They were given out by A-Teams to Montagnard and other irregular troops and to friendly villages, not as combat weapons, obviously, but as hearts and minds trade/goodwill goods. There have been a few on GB in recent years.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Very interesting. I don't recall that shotgun. But then my memory has faded in the past 4 decades.

 

[Ruggz1515]

What is your price point OP?

Seems the Inland/Ithaca trench guns have gone down in price, right about $1000:
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/mobile/product/11846/mks_m37_trench_gun_12ga_20_blk_walnut_5+1

Definitely $1000 is a bit much for me. But if, in fact Ithaca 37s with games scenes were around in the Military at that time, that could be very well be a good buy for me (as they usually don't go for much comparatively). It would be considered authentic in a way. Military game-scened Ithaca's were blued instead of Parkerized?

 

[Ruggz1515]

Converting a M12 into a trench gun isn't that difficult Numrich has the handguard you'll need to shim it cause real trench barrels are a little thicker.
Please find one somebody has already bubba'd with a polychoke nice M12s are getting scarce.

Don't you have to screw into the barrel or something like that, to fit the heat shield? Also, does anyone know where I can get a plain "non-game scene" Ithaca receiver?

 

[mavracer]

Don't you have to screw into the barrel or something like that, to fit the heat shield?

You have to file slots in the bottom of the barrel for the screws.

 

[entropy]

I was employed by a Government Contractor in the last years of the Vietnam conflict. We transported arms and related items to South East Asia. This included S&W revolvers.M-1 Garands converted to .308 etc.
One of the eye catchers was the beautifully crafted A-5 Browning shotguns. we transported hundreds of these from Browning's distribution center in Arnold, Missouri to S.E. Asia. We had 50 of these hijacked in Evansville, Indiana. Our security was so tight the bandits were arrested with in a matter of hours.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=699

That explains why all the SE Asians in the Twin Cities wanted A-5's when they moved here in the 80's.

 

[Fuego]

Remington Wingmaster 870 18" with no sling was standard issue on our ship. The Marines had the same shotgun, but with a sling.

Sailors never stood watch with a shotgun, but they were issued when we has nuclear security drills. The other option was a Thompson. I like a shotgun personally. I too many a squirrel with an 870 when I was in high school.

 

[Dog Soldier]

That explains why all the SE Asians in the Twin Cities wanted A-5's when they moved here in the 80's.

Thanks so much for that post. I never knew the Montagnards wanted A-5 Brownings after the war. That post is important to me. Thanks.

 

[Crawdad1]

That's why during World War Two our military order more Model 12s than any other shotgun. Come on, they were incredibly expensive to build and that's what did them in, that's all.

 

[Dog Soldier]

That's why during World War Two our military order more Model 12s than any other shotgun. Come on, they were incredibly expensive to build and that's what did them in, that's all.

Was it cost that did them in or progress? Winchester made some super errors in 1964. They sunk their boat with the Post 64 firearms. Winchester was being run by "Bean Counters". They killed the company with progressive management.

 

[Crawdad1]

During it brief years of production, the Remington Model 31, which is an excellent shotgun itself, was outsold by the Model 12 by over 2 to 1. Then Remington asked themselves, do we really need to offer a repeater that is practically hand built? And turned to building a good shotgun cheaper, their Model 870. They never looked back from there and now there is over 7 million of them sold. Winchester was caught red handed and were left behind. When you have that kind of competition you cannot continue to build a shotgun that was milled from a solid block of steel like the Model 12, it was just to labor intensive. You can blame the bean counters as they did have a part in this but, all they really did was just point out to Winchester that they're losing money hand over foot.

 

[Dog Soldier]

I was on the Skeet Team at a large Midwestern university at that time. I owned a Mdl 12 Black Diamond with a Skeet # 1 barrel. This was also the time when competition shooters were going to the over and under Brownings.
Many of us in later years went to the Remington 870 TC grade guns. I was never impressed with the Rem 870. I expect those who started with steel and wood guns found change to stampings and plastic difficult.

 

[Crawdad1]

"something that would not make a reliable combat shotgun." That's why our military purchased the Model 12 more than any other shotgun during time it was being produced.

"The Model 12 remained as the primary combat shotgun, used heavily by the USMC in Korea and until the Vietnam War where they again served."

http://olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_shotgun_m12.php

 

[.455_Hunter]

I have always thought the shotgun and/or 9mm AR subgun would be the best PDW armament for junior military officers to supplement a good DA/SA hammer fired sidearm. Junior officers should be directing fire, looking through binos, or talking on the radio, NOT engaging in rifle play with the enemy.

I would gladly take a Model 12 into combat today...

 

[GRIZ22]

So, the most bizarre Vietnam era military shotgun has to be the H&R single shot 12ga, "Special Forces Model". These were 28" barreled 12ga models with a parkerized finish and marked "Special Forces Model" on them. The barrel appears to be marked "3 3/4 Full" but that seems quite odd given that the 3.5" shell wasn't produced until the mid 1980s. They were given out by A-Teams to Montagnard and other irregular troops and to friendly villages, not as combat weapons, obviously, but as hearts and minds trade/goodwill goods. There have been a few on GB in recent years.

A friend of mine got one of these as a retirement gift from the office about 20 years ago. He was an advisor to Montangards when he was in Vietnam. He talked about wanting one of these guns and someone found one in excellent plus condition. I can't remember what we paid for it but it was a good deal more than what a H&R single shot was going for at the time.

FWIW, I was watching a show about Marines in Hue during Tet 68. One scene was a Marine with an 870.

I don't remember seeing too many issue shotguns when I was in Vietnam. I saw a lot more shotguns guys had bought on R&R in Hawaii, brought them back, and cut them down. When I was in Vietnam they didn't really make an issue about what you brought in country but would only let you take a legitimate war souvenir home.

 

[kBob]

RPRNY and Griz,

Now you have done it! The truck gun crowd is now bound to find these H&Rs, be excited by the rear sight and break out their hacksaws!

Actually I wonder if one might put such a rear sight on a garden variety H&R and cut it down to 18.5 inches and install a simple blade front and make a sheath to fit the works in for the back of the F-150 and.... SEE NOW YOU"VE DONE IT!!!!!

-kBob

 

[PabloJ]

The quintessential shotgun of Vietnam conflict was the 12ga 20" Cyl choked barrel Stevens 77E with sling swivels and black painted hardwood stock. Around 60,000 units were delivered. These are rarely seen because almost all of them were left behind. Those were never sold on surplus market, therefore, the ones that show up were liquidated by police departments who received them from the US. government.

 

[redneck2]

When I was in Vietnam they didn't really make an issue about what you brought in country but would only let you take a legitimate war souvenir home.

I had two cousins that did two tours each, fairly early in the war. '65-67 maybe.

Both said the same thing. You could buy/use about anything you wanted. Could get them from guys going home. It seemed to be a mish-mash of various weapons.

One was a Jeep driver for an officer. He Had a Thompson.

My other cousin was a SeeBee and carried a Garand and maybe a shotgun in his dozers when he built airstrips.

Easy to get, But hell to pay if you were caught trying to bring one back.

 

[lemaymiami]

I guess I should be included as one of those in country carrying a shotgun (1971..). Not an issue item, I traded for it (not much, since it was old and in need of a few parts to get it running) -then had my Dad send me the few extractor parts needed to get it up and running. From memory, it was a Stevens with a very short barrel - and I wanted it for a second weapon on the open jeep I had available to me. I scrounged up a musette bag with buckshot rounds and had the shotgun under my right leg -specifically to discourage anyone from jumping up into the jeep.... since I was by myself fairly often... Fortunately, it was never needed or used (a good thing, since I was quite young and knew a lot less about close quarters stuff back then...).

As noted by some already, in rear areas (I was just a pencil pusher - not a combat trooper at all....) you were likely to see almost any kind of weapon. The guys headed out into the bush that I came into contact with never carried anything other than issue gear...

Years later, after I'd been in police work for about five years, I found the need to actually learn as much as I could about close quarters work with a shotgun (and said a quiet prayer for that young fool, carrying a shotgun in a combat zone....).

 

[Ruggz1515]

A friend of mine got one of these as a retirement gift from the office about 20 years ago. He was an advisor to Montangards when he was in Vietnam. He talked about wanting one of these guns and someone found one in excellent plus condition. I can't remember what we paid for it but it was a good deal more than what a H&R single shot was going for at the time.

FWIW, I was watching a show about Marines in Hue during Tet 68. One scene was a Marine with an 870.

I don't remember seeing too many issue shotguns when I was in Vietnam. I saw a lot more shotguns guys had bought on R&R in Hawaii, brought them back, and cut them down. When I was in Vietnam they didn't really make an issue about what you brought in country but would only let you take a legitimate war souvenir home.

So now I'm thinking an 870 wingmaster with the wood corn cob forend and wood stock would be a decent Vietnam Era shotgun, and period correct.