vintage shot gun project

[D.B. Cooper]

I've hemmed and hawed about owning a dedicated defense shotgun for years; now that I'm ready, they're sold out nationwide, so I'm entertaining the idea of cutting up a vintage gun, and I need some input.

I'm looking for something along the lines of the 500/590 Retrograde or Ithaca 37 Defense gun or, if I were on a budget, the Maverick Special Purpose.Essentially a simplistic, 7-8 shot 12 ga pump with an approximately 20 barrel. (Whatever is long enough to cover the 6 or 7 shot mag tube; 1"-2" of barrel length is inconsequential compared to 2 or 3 extra rounds.)

My thought is to buy a vintage hunting shotgun via gunbroker or local sale that fits the above criteria and then cut the barrel off and add a bead. What is going to make a good project gun? Where do I start?

I like the idea of the ability to slam fire, but not sure how truly useful/practical that is. If I make that a "must-have," then I think (correct me if I'm wrong) I'm limiting myself to Model 12s and Ithaca 37s. How do I make sure that the gun I use is reliable enough for home defense? Do I replace every spring in the gun before I get started? (Where do you draw the line on that?)

Whatever gun I start with, the barrel is most likely thicker further back from the muzzle. Do I need to address that? Does it need to be rounded or crowned in some way? How does the inside diameter of a 12 ga at mid barrel compare to a cylinder bore diameter?How is this gun going to pattern after I cut the barrel (and choke) off? Do I need to have it threaded for choke inserts and then put a choke (imp cyl perhaps?) in it?

What is the cutting process going to be like? What tools do I need to do this correctly? (I always seem to cut pipe at weird angles when using a hack saw, even going slow with a new blade; it never seems to come out with an end that is at a right angle to the wall of the tube.) How do I address the bare steel that will be exposed by cutting the barrel? (Do I just put some Cold Blue on it, or should I take it to a pro for re-blueing or ceracoting?)

For legality purposes, from where do I start to measure the length of the barrel? (What is "0 inches" on the barrel?)

 

[jaguarxk120]

Please do not use a classic gun like a Model 12 or Ithaca Model 37.
You can get a cheap Mossberg 500 or 88 much cheaper used or even new.
They are proven guns and for HD there is a never ending supply of
doodad's to hang on them for HD. You can add so much that
a set of wheels will be needed to move it!!
Remember not everyone thinks a M12 or M37 trench gun is cool

 

[Armored farmer]

While I appreciate @jaguarxk120 opinion, and his love for the old classics, my opinion differs from his.
Those old classics, and I am speaking particularly about model 12s, are collecting dust and showing up in gunships that I frequent.
A model 12 is a smooth operating, quality piece. They are excellent take-down guns that will fit in a small inconspicuous case when broken down. Slamfire capable (if that's your desire...), and follower fed friendly (toss a round in the port, and it will chamber). It is exactly what you want. Nothing wrong with using an old classic quality gun as a family defender.
I would rather see one getting use as a defender as collecting dust and rust.
My lgs has a 20ga mod 12 with an adjustable choke on the rack.

 

[entropy]

My thought is to buy a vintage hunting shotgun via gunbroker or local sale that fits the above criteria and then cut the barrel off and add a bead. What is going to make a good project gun? Where do I start?

I actually recommend just getting a gun set up thay way to start with but if you insist.....

I like the idea of the ability to slam fire, but not sure how truly useful/practical that is. If I make that a "must-have," then I think (correct me if I'm wrong) I'm limiting myself to Model 12s and Ithaca 37s. How do I make sure that the gun I use is reliable enough for home defense? Do I replace every spring in the gun before I get started? (Where do you draw the line on that?)

Not all Ithaca 37's are slamfire; they took it out at some point, I don't know when.

Whatever gun I start with, the barrel is most likely thicker further back from the muzzle. Do I need to address that? Does it need to be rounded or crowned in some way? How does the inside diameter of a 12 ga at mid barrel compare to a cylinder bore diameter?How is this gun going to pattern after I cut the barrel (and choke) off? Do I need to have it threaded for choke inserts and then put a choke (imp cyl perhaps?) in it?

The barrel is the same thickness from about 6" forward to the muzzle. It can be rounded a little by using a small file or (carefully!) a Dremel. The inside of most shotgun barrels mid-length is cylinder bore, unless it is back bored, or Tula choked; only expensive competition guns are so. The nominal bore is usually .735 to .740. It will pattern Cylinder, that is, no choke. The standard measure is 1" of spread per yard to target. SO, 10 yards 10", 40 yards, 40". You don't need to thread it and have chokes, but if you do I recommend Briley to do the work. https://www.briley.com/ Best in the biz.

What is the cutting process going to be like? What tools do I need to do this correctly? (I always seem to cut pipe at weird angles when using a hack saw, even going slow with a new blade; it never seems to come out with an end that is at a right angle to the wall of the tube.) How do I address the bare steel that will be exposed by cutting the barrel? (Do I just put some Cold Blue on it, or should I take it to a pro for re-blueing or ceracoting?)

Use a hacksaw in a miter to square it. You can round it off as I mentioned with a file or Dremel. (carefully!) Cold Blue is fine. Brownell's Oxpho blue is the best one.

For legality purposes, from where do I start to measure the length of the barrel? (What is "0 inches" on the barrel?)

The ATF measures shotgun barrel length by sticking a rod down the barrel until it contacts the boltface. They mark that, then measure it with a yardstck or tape. The minimum legal length is 18", I always cut to 18.5" My Ithaca 37 was cut to 18.1" by some unknown person, I bought it after it was traded to the shop I worked at. The Sheriff's Office traded their evidence guns (after trial resolution, obviously) for work on their duty guns. I had to buy a stock before I could bring it home, and I measured that barrel 3 times to be sure it was over 18". I cleaned up the muzzle, cut the rib back to the post, and installed a Spark II fiber optic sight.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

You can get a cheap Mossberg 500 or 88 much cheaper used or even new.

Actually, no, you can't. Not right now. Sportsman's, Bass Pro, and Cabela's are sold out of shotguns nationwide. The only shotguns I see in the local classifieds websites are hunting guns, most of them modern with factory 3 round magazines.

 

[barnett]

D. B. I don't know where you are but my Scheels here in DFW has a good supply of 590s and Maverick 88s. I bought a 590 retrograde 20" barrel just a few days ago.

 

[George P]

As to your question of where the 0" begins........close the bolt on the shotgun (unloaded of course), drop a dowel down the from the muzzle end. Barrel length needs to be a MINIMUM of 18" from that point.

Cutting down a barrel is not as easy or simple as it sounds, especially when folks talk Dremels, pipe cutters and hacksaws
Personally, I would look beyond the big box stores and try local pawn shops for the used pump guns from Mossberg, Remington, maverick.

Maybe in Armored Farmer's neck of the woods, Model 12s are plentiful; but around here IF you can find one, it will START at $600 in ratty condition.

Nothing wrong with a basic 4+1 pump - add a 6 round shell holder on the receiver and you should be GTG

 

[WestKentucky]

Just make sure it’s not a more recent “overbored” gun, the thought seems silly, but apparently “they” decided that a slightly larger barrel with less friction would improve velocity and control blow by then choke it back down at the business end before the actual choke. I would vote for a store brand, like my dads westernfield 16ga. That would be a really neat defense gun.

 

[Blue Brick]

Try Wal-Mart? Zip code that is close?

 

[Blue Brick]

Wal-Marts near my zip code have 870 and 1300 clones plus Maverick 88's. Not everything is out.

When I bought my Protector it was in the back safe. There was not one on display.

 

[romulus]

My advice, since you seem determined to bubbafy old vintage shotguns:

• cut at 18.5" min based on dowel method described above. Leave no room for contention on the length.
• Go even a tad longer so when the cut is filed (or properly squared and crowned by a smith) you don't run the risk of ending below the legal limit.

Best,
Rom

 

[DocRock]

Not mine, seller not known to me. You're welcome

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871603907

 

[earlthegoat2]

The 6-7 round mag tube pretty well flops Ithaca 37s, Model 12s and a great many Mossberg out of contention.....if there is no compromising on those rules. Model 12s and Mossberg typically have 5 round magazines for 6 round total capacity.

In other words, to meet the 6-7 round magazine criteria you either need to get some sort of factory defender/tactical optioned gun or a gun easily retrofitted for a longer mag tube. The latter is a problem best solved by a Remington 870 as aftermarket mag extensions are plentiful.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

The 6-7 round mag tube pretty well flops Ithaca 37s, Model 12s and a great many Mossberg out of contention.....if there is no compromising on those rules. Model 12s and Mossberg typically have 5 round magazines for 6 round total capacity.

In other words, to meet the 6-7 round magazine criteria you either need to get some sort of factory defender/tactical optioned gun or a gun easily retrofitted for a longer mag tube. The latter is a problem best solved by a Remington 870 as aftermarket mag extensions are plentiful.

My Model 12 has a 6-round magazine (1935 production). I wasn't sure about the Ithaca; the modern, 20" barrel Defense Gun, made in Ohio, has a 7-round magazine, but they've temporarily completely closed their doors, so that gun is unobtainium.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I actually recommend just getting a gun set up thay way to start with but if you insist.....

@entropy Thanks for your response. It gives me a starting point.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Maybe in Armored Farmer's neck of the woods, Model 12s are plentiful; but around here IF you can find one, it will START at $600 in ratty condition.

There are currently two Mossberg retrograde shotguns on gun broker, both over $800. There is one Ithaca defense gun (with some crappy, tactitard furniture) at over $1k.

 

[earlthegoat2]

There are currently two Mossberg retrograde shotguns on gun broker, both over $800. There is one Ithaca defense gun (with some crappy, tactitard furniture) at over $1k.

Ithaca defense shotguns with extended mag are pretty uncommon. That explains the price premium.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Ithaca defense shotguns with extended mag are pretty uncommon. That explains the price premium.

I don't think it's "extended"; I think it's from the factory, but that MSRP is $800. Ithaca, in general, is quite pricey.

 

[Armored farmer]

Maybe in Armored Farmer's neck of the woods, Model 12s are plentiful; but around here IF you can find one, it will START at $600 in ratty condition.

I didnt say they were plentiful. I said I see them.
There was a 12 ga last month...gone now.
A 20 ga this week. U will check tomorrow evening and report. I think it was $550

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Please do not use a classic gun like a Model 12 or Ithaca Model 37...Remember not everyone thinks a M12 or M37 trench gun is cool

While I appreciate @jaguarxk120 opinion, and his love for the old classics, my opinion differs from his.
Those old classics, and I am speaking particularly about model 12s, are collecting dust and showing up in gunships that I frequent...I would rather see one getting use as a defender as collecting dust and rust.

I've been thinking about these two comments, as I peruse gunbroker. I understand that items have history or are a part of history. But I also realize that, because of federal hunting regulations banning lead shot, and the composition of the steel in these old barrels, that these old Model 12s really can't be used for much of anything, and that's why they are plentiful on the used market.

I own 3 pre-64 Winchester shotguns (my family was a dedicated Winchester family until 2006.), and I haven't fired any of them in yearrrrrrrs. They're in the very far back of the safe. The only way I could hunt with these guns is to buy Fiocchi Tundra non-tox or Kent Bismuth ammo-both of which are very expensive and hard to find. (Neither have been available in my city for 15 years and no LGS has been able to order it. The only ammo I have for them, came from Graf & Sons before the federal regs changed banning the shipping of ammo as hazmat by air. The only reason none of these are candidates for me to cut up is that two were my father's and the other was my grandfather's.

So there we have it. As ArmoredFarmer put it, these guns can either sit in a safe in the dark, or be modified and put back into service.

To be fully honest, if I could find another barrel for my Dad's Model 12, I would cut that barrel and install it on my Dad's gun and be done. If I could find an affordable and original Model 12 witha 20" barrel that would be great, but even faked guns are $1k+. (I just saw a Winchester WWII Trench Gun on GB for $1800 The barrel was stamped "Full Choke" LOL)

 

[entropy]

I see Model 12's fairly regularly, just north of Armored Farmer, for $350-700, depending on condition. Another gun to consider, though probably just as rare up there in AK, is the Win. 97. Two other models that are usually less expensive, but are the same guns, just not takedown, are the Model 1893, (same as 97) and the Model 25. (same as the 12.) These are often overlooked as collectors want the 97's and 12's. I see 30" full 97's all the time for $300. They aren't pretty, no finish to speak of, but they work. I keep meaning to snag one and cut it down, but my Ithaca 37 works so well, I really don't need to.

For adding extra capacity on the tube, the 870 is the one where you'll have the most options. (or for any other addons, for that matter.)

Some other inexspensive options:
Springfield 67 series. Used in VN.
Savage/Stevens model 520/620 series. Used in WWII.
Ted Williams (Winchester) pump
J.C. Higgins (usually Mossberg) pumps. These usually are cheap in pawn shops and the used rack at LGS's.

 

[George P]

Seems Gun Broker has a ton of Maverick 88s under $200.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Savage/Stevens model 520/620 series. Used in WWII.

The mention of the Stevens 520 jogged my memory in that it also has the slam fire feature.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

For dedicated HD gun i would seriously pawn shop for a cut up old 870 wingmaster. All the modern accessories will fit and you wont have to worry about cutting something that’s already been bubba’d.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

The mention of the Stevens 520 jogged my memory in that it also has the slam fire feature.

the 520 wont work for the OP’s application. The magazine tube terminates with a plug that screws into the barrel and won’t allow magazine extensions.