VZ.58 Club:

[coalbed]

Not a striker

Welcome to the new members, owning a VZ 58 variant for me is like finally finding what I wanted, without having to just settle for what was available. Now, im going to stir up a nest of hornets here. I thought I would post about a bit of incorrect information that just seems to get bigger and bigger. Seems like every new article or post about the VZ 58 Ive seen refers to it as "striker fired" sometimes with a reference to the glock pistol. It is no such thing. The original Czech manual translates to "linear hammer" fired which is totally different from a striker. A striker is basically a firing pin held under spring tension, that when released by the trigger mech, flies forward and strikes the primer of the round. This is how the glock and other striker types work. A linear hammer, is a hammer held by tension which is released by the trigger mech, flies forward, strikes a firing pin (which may or may not have an inertia safety spring), which then strikes the primer of the round. It may be just mixing words for many, but I feel we are responsible for bringing correct information as well as the correct terminology to light. So, to be precise, the VZ 58 is a hammer fired rifle not a striker fired, even though it uses an unconventional linear hammer. (and yes I know the Czechpoints and others are marketed as "striker fired". All I can say about that, is they also are "shop built" and not made by the original maunfacturer, they are just made in a Czech shop instead of a U.S. one.) The original manual terms the rifle as "linear hammer fired". I think the proper term should be used, and especially by a builder. They even sell the spare parts as a "striker". Someone is wrong here, either Czechpoint, or Česká zbrojovka Uherský Brod, and ill tend to lean in favor of the original manufacturer. I noticed Wikipedia describes it as striker fired, but if you look at the translated field strip picture on the same page, the part is clearly labled "linear hammer". You can have a striker, or you can have a hammer, but you can't have both on the same rifle. Having incorrect information repeated a million times does not make it any less incorrect.

 

[Okiegunner]

Just today picked mine up at the ffl today.

I can't seem to get the folding stock to fold. I don't want to accidentally break it. I sprayed it down with some break free to see if that will help.

Any suggestions?

 

[barnbwt]

If a S&W hammer with a firing pin mounted on it is not a "striker," than a VZ58 striker is not a hammer. It is a striker with an inertial firing pin. You can have a hammer with an inertial firing pin as well. Striker denotes linear travel, hammer tangential travel. If the VZ had had a fixed firing pin on the striker, out of battery slamfires would have been far more likely if the hammer followed, which is why they are separated.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure the original Czech arms manual used a word with Cyrillic letters, which might translate to "hammer" or "striker," but does not necessarily match what English gunnies have accepted for years as standard terms for these fire control group elements. It may work like a slide hammer, but it is called a striker

But who cares? It's a VZ, and it's better than any other 7.62x39 offering on the market! That's what matters. And I'd be buying a VZ2008 from PSA to supplement the DT I have, if I could avoid blowing my money on other stuff first (this week it's a BREN parts kit; at least I'm keeping it in the extended Czech family )

TCB

 

[coalbed]

Oakie, try gently tapping the release button and hinge with a wood block or nylon dowel after you spray it to loosen it up. After you get it folded, work it back and forth a million times, tapping it and spraying it once in a while. Mine was tight too. Barn, the smith isn't a striker because the firing pin isn't free to move without the mass of the attached hammer, although a mechanical engineer might make a good case that the smith in fact had an axial striker, and the gun comunity only called it a hammer because of the simularity of its ancestor, the precussion cap hammer. In industry, we deal with all types of mechanical set ups, and almost everything axial, has its linear counterpart. Think of a carpenters hammer, that is an axial hammer, and an automotive dent puller is a linear hammer, not a striker, a hammer. Just like the hammer on the VZ 58, just as the part is named in every break down except American ones.

 

[barnbwt]

Barn, the smith isn't a striker because the firing pin isn't free to move without the mass of the attached hammer

And yet a Glock striker is exactly that, only a linear analogue. I always differentiated them by the type of motion; linear=striker, rotational=hammer. Myriad FCG design descriptions for current weapons, as well as the myriad+1 conversions of open-bolt guns to closed bolt seem to agree with this nomenclature. The design can them be modified by a separate or integral firing pin, which is floating, spring returned, or mechanically returned. Simple, and it can describe every configuration there can be, which is why I like it. I could care less what some dude in the Victorian Era happened to name something in a patent in a foreign language

You "strike" things with a "hammer," so it really is a distinction without a difference, which is why you shouldn't expect any consistency across multiple mechanical fields (or even within gunnery, outside of a current time/region)

TCB

 

[68wj]

Fortunately, the VZ uses magazines AND clips. We can avoid that nomenclature battle.

 

[coalbed]

I still think its good to discuss these terms when they differ from established and related mechanical fields. If for no other reason than to think about what we are calling something, and should we not be in line with every other mechanical trade? Yes you hit things with a hammer, such as a firing pin, and it doesnt matter if its linear or axial. A hammer is a hammer is a hammer. I do appreciate everyones comments because I consider this forum to be a step above the norm, and I value the opinions of it. Im going to have to put the issue on the back burner for now as im in the middle of moving, and I only have the tiny buttons of this phone to post with until I get my computer set up. I think I will ask Dan from Czechpoint why they went that route later if hes still over there. I do realize it doesnt mean a hill of beans to most folks, but I guess either my 30 year background in electro-mechanical repair, or my anal personality, just makes it stick in my craw.

 

[barnbwt]

The real question we should be asking is, now that the VZ2008 is (the most?) a very affordable option for 7.62x39, finally, after all these years of AK price-dominance -- will we be seeing a renaissance of activity, accessories, and development in the VZ platform? Hopefully PSA will ship my VZ sometime this month, and I'll be able to closely compare the two makers' offerings

Still tryin' to get my neighbor to take the plunge

TCB

 

[sawdeanz]

Hey guys nice to see an active VZ community here as I just took advantage of the PSA sale as well to get myself a vz2008. I was really excited about the more advanced features and lighter weigh of the VZ compared to an AK, and now I have an appropriate rifle to match my CZ pistol too

Also I will be doing some more research on whether/which forward scope rail to get, but one immediate question I haven't been clear about are the stripper clips. I thought I read somewhere that the VZ has its own strippers, and that the sks ones don't work as well. Is there a source for the proper ones, or is this a myth?

 

[barnbwt]

Neither are particularly awesome, but that has more to do with the type of stripper clip than anything. IIRC, the VZ61 clips have a round cross section at their bends, rather than a square one (or I have it backwards)

TCB

 

[sawdeanz]

Second question, I've been looking at the various scope mounts available. I like the idea of a low profile one to put a micro red dot on. From what I understand though, the upper handguard is removed for cleaning. Does this affect zero? Or do you guys with scopes have a different cleaning method? Of course I'm asking because I expect to be putting corrosive rounds through it and want to make sure it is cleaned properly.

And which ones can be mounted securly without the accompanying lower rails?

 

[barnbwt]

Why bother with a scope if you're using crummy corrosive surplus? It's cool and all if that's your plan, it just seems odd you'd have a high precision aiming instrument for ammo that's neither particularly high quality nor something you have much control over.

Cool VZ 'bubba' developments; a member over on Weaponsguild is thinking about dressing one up/turning one into a VSS Vintorez


Kewl beans.

TCB

 

[coalbed]

A VZ Ventorez set up might be pretty cool. I wonder, is he going to go all out and use a silencer, and rebarrel for 9x39?

 

[coalbed]

Oh yea, I was kind of curious about the correct stripper clips as well. Ive went through about 120 SKS clips and it seems the ones that are stamped with the largest side stops work the best regardless of manufacturer, as long as they are seated as deep as posible into the magazine. I didnt have a single Czech clip in the whole bunch to try, so im not sure if they are any diifferent. I also can only add the 10 rounds from the clip into the magazine, as the act of pulling the empty clip out activates the bolt release. I figure if it came down to using clips, the designers only ment to top off a mag, or worse case, use the rifle as a 10 shot, unless there is a way to load 3 full clips into an empty mag that im unaware of.

 

[barnbwt]

Push the bolt catch while yanking the clip out, and the carrier will probably stay back. Still a dumb manual of arms to have a finger messing around the trigger area while loading a gun...

The guy doing the VintoreZ is just doing a dummy can, since otherwise it'd be a one year from now Form 1 prospect at this point. I imagine he's basically gonna graft a PSL stock onto the rear, slap on a side-mount scope base, figure out some way to install a large diameter AR free float tube grip over the barrel, and make some new shorty grips for the remainder of the lower forearm and to cover the old sight base. Would make disassembly a bit harder (not much, if you can just screw off the tube), but imagine the hotness!

The Vintorez is basically an AK with a really short short-stroke gas piston system (they also made an itty bitty assault rifle a hair bigger than a Skorpion), which is what prompted the choice of a VZ for the build.

TCB

 

[coalbed]

From a design point of view, the short recoil system in the Ventorez is an improvement over the AKs long recoil system, so a VZ 58 platform should work out great. It has been said the 9x39 subsonic is very accurate and has plenty if down range energy, sort of an old school, slow but heavy way of doing it, but it gets the job done, and with alot less noise to give the sniper away. Ive been thinking about how a VZ 58 type rebarreled in 9x39 would preform for months now, not a Veny look alike, just a simple rebarrel job keeping the VZ 58 look. Maybe soon Molot or Saiga will offer something in this caliber and an ammo source. Ahhhh it would be so nice to have enough money to follow through with even 1/2 of the projects I think would be neat to try. I hope he goes through with it, and just maybe he will consider a rebarrel. That would be an awsome little rifle. Another thing that has been rolling around in my head is a getting one of the VZ58 type pistols. I never really thought much of that class of arms before, but now that the BATF has deemed it ok to fire an AR 15 type pistol equiped with the SIG Stability Brace from the shoulder, it opens up a whole new world of possibilities for this class of weapon. Heck I have a PPS 43C pistol right now that im in the process of designing an adapter plate to use the device. thetruthaboutguns has an article on the BATF decision, but for some reason the link I tried to paste comes up as invalid. Ill try again, www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/foghorn/breaking-atf-confirms-firing-ar-15-pistol-shoulder-ok/ *..... Please keep us posted on the VZ-Ventorez project if you are following it.

 

[Swampman]

Originally posted by barnbwt

Why bother with a scope if you're using crummy corrosive surplus?

Not trying to start a fight, but the only corrosive 7.62x39 that I've seen available in the last few years has been Yugo M-67, and in my experience, it's some of the most accurate factory 7.62x39 ammo available. It'll easily outshoot $22 a box, current production Winchester or Federal ammo. As for ammo that people can actually afford, I haven't shot anything that'll match it for accuracy (Note: I don't claim to have shot every type of ammo currently available, I mostly shoot reloads or old surplus).

As for noncorrosive SURPLUS, the only one I've found that can hang with M67 is Lapua. The accuracy is about the same, maybe slightly better, but the M67 is almost 100 fps faster (granted the Lapua bullets are 7 grains heavier). Neither Egyptian nor South African surplus has ever given me the consistency in grouping I get with the M67.

Despite popular misconceptions, the only disadvantage to corrosive primers is that they're corrosive, as long as you clean your weapon properly after shooting, there's no disadvantage whatsoever.

In fact, back in the late 50's (after the production of US military corrosive primers had been totally abandoned for 3 or 4 years), Frankford Arsenal actually went BACK to using corrosive primers for their match 7.62x51 NATO in an attempt to increase accuracy. Apparently it wasn't worth the effort because they only did it for a year or two.

 

[sawdeanz]

Originally posted by barnbwt


Not trying to start a fight, but the only corrosive 7.62x39 that I've seen available in the last few years has been Yugo M-67, and in my experience, it's some of the most accurate factory 7.62x39 ammo available.

Fortunately I've found tt this to be true. Non corrosive ammo is easy to find cheap, until I actually bought a 762 rifle I had assumed I would have to boil my rifle all the time.

 

[ifit]

Ok decided to place an order on czechpoints 5.56 vz58 pistol with sig brace, which they also use the new walther barrels. Also ordered couple of goodies for the pistol. Anybody on board experience with these? Or welcome any thoughts on this pistol version
As advertised

With the accessories I also ordered, will look like this

 

[coalbed]

looks awsome, but Ive never shot one. Let us know how it runs, I may be right behind you with a 7.62 version if finances allow. Hmmm I might sell my PPS43 C to help pay for one. Im still moving and have all those fees and deposits to pay. Im really wanting a VZ 58 pistol with that device.

 

[coalbed]

Oh yea has anyone tried Czechpoints side scope mount on a Ohio Ordnance Works VZ2000 ?

 

[barnbwt]

Got my PSA VZ2008 in today, and I'm fairly impressed with what I got for 400$, shipped. 5 magazines would be a steal at 100$, so the gun itself is less than 300$, a practically criminally low price; I honestly have no idea how Century could produce these at a profit in the fairly low volumes they're making. Seeing the matte-black park/paint/whatever in person after becoming accustomed to the 'odd' glossy grey of the D-Technik build I have, I don't care for it as much, but it seems good enough. The front sight base is ever so slightly off center, maybe half a degree, nothing drifting the sight won't fix if it's needed. The trigger is baaaaaad. Like way bad; twice as heavy and somehow more creepy than the DT build, largely owing the CAI's insistence on retaining both sear leaf springs (so you're loading up the semi and auto sear springs when you pull the trigger). The factory parts themselves look to be in very good shape, possibly fresher than those in the DT, which had been used for a time before I got it but was still in good shape. Lots of square corners and unworn surfaces in the factory original parts. I do think it needs a good cleaning and lubing; there appears to be no visible lube in the gun at all. The firing pin moves freely, but won't fall away from the bolt face under its own weight; gonna clean out whatever's gumming it up slightly. Machining on the receiver appears excellent, and it's funny to see it 'sharp' looking, since the very thick enamel on the DT build rounds everything slightly. I had brought a box of ammo to test it, but I'm convinced it's not needed; everything appears good enough as it is to take it home and get it ready for a real break-in at a later date. Stack it up against the SA VZ58

In all, I'm satisfied, but just need to wear everything in a bit. I imagine my DT was a bit stiffer than when I bought it used as well, but probably not quite to this extent. CAI obviously parked over everything, so all the tight-clearance dimensions are tight (takedown pins, folding stock, etc.). I do have to say the bore looks pretty damn terrible for a factory new unit, especially coming from Green Mountain as these supposedly do. I've ordered GM blanks and they are miles better than this sand-papery looking thing. Gonna have to do a true barrel break in procedure for once here, because unless that rough texture magically cleans out on a patch, it's gonna cause some serious fouling if I don't keep after it. Hopefully it'll burnish out quickly.

Word to the wise; if you want one of these, it sounds like the door is closing. These are closeouts, and apparently other retailers selling them are starting to dry up. Either AIM or CFS are sold out, and the other has them at 1200$ for some stupid reason, and I heard another store or two has run dry. Neither VZ2008s nor VZ parts kits are being made anymore, I believe, so once we import the remainder of what the Czechs have remaining as they transition to the neo-BREN, that'll be it, I'm afraid

TCB

 

[sawdeanz]

@barnbwt

I was going to reply how I received mine as well! Just a week and a half I think to get mine from PSA, and very happy to see that mine had a date of April 2014 on the sticker, so it will still be under warranty long enough for me to find any problems, though I don't think there will be. Looking at ammo prices coming down I was considering an sks or bargain bin AR, but one of these is miles ahead of an sks, its a no brainer.

I did get a chance to test fire it, and it functioned fine with 25 rounds of brass and steel cased. Brass showed visible but normal expansion, and primers looked great. I was pleased with how quick and easy it was to bring the muzzle back on target. Accuracy is still to be determined. I tried some shots off an improvised rest but the front post is thick, and my target was small, and I'm not an experienced shooter. The sights were on paper but will still need to be drifted a little. What is the zero range for these?

It is interesting to hear your perspective after owning other builds. Due to my lack of experience perhaps, many of your points don't bother me. Trigger is long and mushy, but also smooth and consistent until the break. Finish and machining on the receiver was smooth and even, with the gas tube, front sight base and stock showing a little more irregularity (I assume these are the surplus parts)?

The one thing I have to complain is the bolt carrier. Machining and finish seemed pretty rough, with some deep marks on the inside and gritty surfaces. Is this a Century part? I'll see about posting some pictures tonight. I wonder if that is contributing to the firing pin hang up? I was actually a bit surprised to learn the design doesn't incorporate a firing pin return spring or safety block of some sort.

Sorry for the long post, but if any are still reading I have a curiosity question about the VZ design in general. I like knowing how and why things work, and the VZ locking system seems a bit unique for its time. While ARs, Aks and the like were embracing the effective barrel extension/rotary bolt system, the VZ maintained a receiver locking system. Wouldn't this be considered inferior in many ways? How does the strength of the VZ action hold up compared to an AR or Ak? I have no doubt the Czechs designed a reliable and robust rifle, but I'm still curious.

 

[sawdeanz]

Cc


Bolt carrier from my century arms :/

 

[coalbed]

In regard to your question, the VZ 58 design is sound, and is in many way superior to the AK and even the AR to a degree. As for the locking system, it too is a very strong and safe way of doing it, if a bit different than most. Remember this is an all steel weapon with a strong machined reciever, so having the locking where it is, is logical, and it saves a bit of length. The Czechs made a 7.62 NATO version for testing and as far as I know it was strong enough for that round which is much more powerful than the 7.62x39R. I wouldnt worry at all about the strength of the rifle, it will last you a lifetime with minimal care. The only problems I have ever heard of are these semi-auto versions MAY have is the "VZ58 gremlin" effect (put in a bolt tab to be sure you never get it), and the Century's have a heavy trigger as the other posters have said. A pretty good solution I hear, is to bend one trigger spring down so it is only using one, that way the other spring remains as a sort of spare in case its needed, or you can cut it off with a dremel. You may want to touch up the mating surfaces with a fine stone and oil, or if its still worse than you want, Bonesteel Arms make a very good replacement (or they did, you may want to check). Congratulations to both of you on your new rifles.