WA: Federal Way PD Recognizes Open Carry's Legality

[Gray Peterson]

Why would we put much stock in a statement by someone who is in charge of a licensing agency, when commenting on an activity that requires no license?

The Firearms Division has to deal with all manner of law in regards to firearms, not just related to the issues of licensing. For example, they would be able to tell you whether or not you need an Alien Firearms License in order to possess firearms in Washington State (in almost all cases you need to, unless you are a Canadian hunter who has a special exemption under the law).

DOL also licenses security guards, which, go figure, require open carry as per their own regulations and laws. They regulate beyond the license, they also regulate your conduct as well if you're a licensed person.

So, they can say what is not required to be licensed by the DOL. For example, you can do some forms of security work without a license from the DOL. They can state with a legal certainty that it is legal to do so without a license under those circumstances.

Same principle with open carry and regular civilians who may or may not be issued CPL's. You need a CPL to carry a loaded handgun in your car, regardless of your concealed or open carry status, for example.

 

[ChristopherG]

Such a statement from a licensing agency would at least be interesting--so can you let me know where to find it?

 

[Gray Peterson]

Here is the copy of the email that I received:

Thank you for you e-mail question concerning questions related to RWC 9.41.060. RCW 9.41.060(8) does set up an exception to the restrictions on carrying firearms for persons engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity. For the purpose of enforcement of this provision, law enforcement will review the circumstances surrounding each case and make a determination if there is a violation of law or if a concealed pistol license would have been required.

With regard to Washington being an open carry-state. This is correct, however it does not provide you with the right to carry a non-concealed handgun in the same places as someone with a valid concealed pistol license. For this I would refer you to RCW 9.41.300 and RCW 9.41.050.

Once again, thank you for e-mail question concerning questions related to RCW 9.41.060. If you have further question you may reach me at 360-664-6622.

Bill Forth, Program manager
Firearms Unit
Public Protection Services Section
Business and Professions division
Department of Licensing

Hey George, I checked through Olympia City Code and there's no firearms ordinances unusually affecting open carry. Nothing in Thurston County Code, either. They would be preempted anyway beyond state law.

This ought to be an interesting phone call.

 

[pytron]

Thanks Lonnie! I've been out of the loop for a long time--good to see that others are still fighting.

Great work with the FWPD!
-pytron

 

[deanf]

Well I am happy that the DOL made these statements, but . . . it would help to know how they came to feel comfortable making the blanket statement that WA is an open carry state. Did a staff attorney review the law and come to this opinion? Is this just Mr. Forth's reading? If I was Mr. Forth, and I was hoping to limit the liability of my agency, I would have simply said "open carry is not licensed by this agency."

I would not start open carrying and hope to use that email as a defense to prosecution.

 

[George S.]

I still would like to see a definitive statement in the form of a legal opinion from the WA AG's office (not the DOL) regarding the issue of open carry within the state. Mr. Forth is a "Program Manager" and with my 30 years worth of knowledge of management positions within the State of Washington, a "Program Manager" does not typically issued edicts that carry the force of law. What he said is most likely his interpretation of the quoted RCW's.

While I agree with what Mr. Forth said in part "however it does not provide you with the right to carry a non-concealed handgun in the same places as someone with a valid concealed pistol license. For this I would refer you to RCW 9.41.300 and RCW 9.41.050." There is always the distinct possibility that any LEO will detain and possibly arrest somebody for openly carrying a firearm (with the exception of the City of Federal Way ).

What needs to happen is to have a legal statement come from the AG or have the courts issue an opinion based on case findings. I would even suspect that a final decision may eventually have to be made by the WA State Supreme Court.

Lonnie, I have looked at the codes for this area and I agree that while nothing says you can't openly carry, I still think that open carry in downtown Olympia, Lacey or Tumwater will result in a quick visit from the city's finest. I would expect that the result would be either a stern warning to remove the firearm from view or face arrest for something like "disturbing the peace" or some similar charge.

My feeling is that while contacting city PD's on an individual basis may help to get them to better understand the RCW, the City Attorneys may decide that they have a different opinion and would effectively tell the PD to not allow open carry. This would most likely be in the form of a legal opinion and the only way to change that would be a court test or legislative action.

But anyway, you have done the citizens of Federal Way a great favor and hopefully other WA PD's will follow.

 

[ChristopherG]

I think George is certainly right about Olympia; I went to that hippie school just out of town, and ate many a hangtown fry at the Spar downtown, and I have NO doubt that open carry in the downtown area--or really almost anywhere in Olympia--would net you a doublequick visit from the PD; and they would have just about no interest at all in discussing the finer points of the RCW.

Places like Olympia will not be safe for open carry (as in, safe from arrest and possible prosecution) without a comprehensive and well-publicized legal ruling that puts open carry under the protective umbrella of state preemption. Or so I think.

 

[deanf]

On a somewhat related issue, here is a link that WA residents interested in civil liberties/rights might find interesting:

https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/led/ledpage.html

Every month the Law Enforcement Digest is written by the WA AG's office, and published by the Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission. CJTC is the state agency responsible for training all state commissioned officers (county/city PD) in WA, except State Patrol.

The LED is an in-depth summary of recent court decisions at the state and federal levels that might affect how officers interact with people they contact in the field.

We need to get open carry into the LED eventually, with wording favorable to our side.

 

[Gray Peterson]

A search through LegalWA.org on anything referring to RCW 9.41.270, has been mostly along the following subjects:

9.41.270 being a "lessor included offense" to second degree burglary, robbery, or assault.

9.41.270 from someone pulling back their coat after arguing with a doctor and the doctor being intimidated enough to write a perscription for a drug that the doctor did not feel was neccesary.

There is no case at all dealing with open carry of a handgun in a holster that made it's way up the court of appeal level at all.

I have no interesting in confront law enforcement on the street, which is why this should be done in a sterile manner as was done with Fed Way as with Olympia.

Btw, Federal Way is not an exception to the rule. Most jurisdictions know about open carry being legal here. It's just certain portions of the state who don't train their officers well enough on the subject, because it's been a non-issue until now.

To give an example: Public Records Act requests. Every time there is an audit of state and local government's compliance with the state's PRA law, the failure rate is also enormously high. Sometimes persons requesting records have to give a reason why before given, which is not required in the law. Sometimes they flat out refuse. PRA requests to law enforcement usually get made with force and intimidation tactics. None of this is legal, of course, until someone sits them down with their supervisors and their chiefs and tells them what happened. It's always "I didn't know that was legal".

Same problem.

 

[SAG0282]

Very cool, as I find myself in FW a lot, though I will continue always CCWing.

Nice work, thanks for putting in the time.

 

[No_Brakes23]

Nice.

I wonder what the law is up here in Snohomish Co.

 

[Gray Peterson]

No_Breaks

Nothing in Snohomish County Code that I can see.

However, lots of violations of RCW 9.41.290 up in Everett. Stanwood generally follows the law (allows concealed firearms with license and in a vehicle) but technical violations make them invalid (it's under the disorderly conduct statutes)

www.mrsc.org. Lots of good city code reference information.

 

[MillCreek]

I have posted my opinion on this in other threads on this site. Although I applaud the work of Mr. Wilson, I am unsure as to the practical effect of contacting various LEO piecemeal on this issue. Who is to say that the next chief of the Federal Way PD will have a different opinion on open carry, get a different legal opinion and re-establish 'arrest on sight'?

As I have suggested earlier and George S and Dean F suggest here, what we need is statutory language explicitly permitting open carry, an appellate court decision establishing the same, or an advisory AG opinion. This will establish consistency across the state and the issue will not be left up to the discretion of individual officers and agencies.

But kudos to Mr. Wilson for his work.

 

[Veritas]

Lonnie, what kind of preemption violations have been occuring in Everett?

 

[Gray Peterson]

Who is to say that the next chief of the Federal Way PD will have a different opinion on open carry, get a different legal opinion and re-establish 'arrest on sight'?

"Arrest on sight" did not come from the previous or current Federal Way chief. Arrest on sight came from a few law enforcement officers arresting people thinking that all open carry is illegal or illegal if a call for services were made, and the City Attorney's did not file charges because open carry is simply not illegal.

As I stated, RCW 9.41.270 is not the issue here. The issue is one of law enforcement officers reading into the law something that's not there.

Mill, if you wish I can send you the .pdf file that I received.

Veritas:

Everett City Firearms Law

 

[Rezin]

Lonnie, way to Go!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cesiumsponge]

I'm glad to see this. I've haven't been keeping up with current events and the FWPD didn't seem very knowledgable when I went to apply for my CPL and had some basic questions regarding carry. (Anne was already out, mine got stamped by interim chief Brian Wilson)

 

[Gray Peterson]

Cesium:

Interesting. Gimme a PM or something. Since you're also a FW resident might want to have coffee or drink sometime?

 

[gunsmith]

you know Lonnie

I hear Reno is a wonderful town, we can sure use your talents here!

You and Jim have done some excellent work, I suspected Jim
was involved when you mentioned PRAR