Wadcutters for self defense loads?

[357smallbore]

I carry 148's from Federal in my 3in 38 Special. Not worried in the least that if called upon I'd be in fear for my life, or wish I had different ammo loaded in it. They will bore a good sized hole in a human. More then likely blow out the back of em. I'm not the Kool Aid drinking kind of guy that has to have the latest super jhp, or a cool looking box that holds the ammo. Just practice and shoot what I know will work. It is also a plus that I love to reload.

 

[shoebox1.1]

I think 3 or 4 well placed “slow” wadcutters are gonna stop any trouble that’s bipedal! I would feel well armed with some in my revolver. That being said I am carrying golden sabers in a 2 and 3 inch guns

 

[JERRY]

I think 3 or 4 well placed “slow” wadcutters are gonna stop any trouble that’s bipedal! I would feel well armed with some in my revolver. That being said I am carrying golden sabers in a 2 and 3 inch guns

well placed. if that were the norm rather than the exception we would see better number for all calibers, even the small ones.

 

[Buckeye63]

I use wadcutters in my 38 LCR backup gun for a few reasons. Number 1: that gun hurts with almost any ammo. Number 2: At the velocity a 38 is going, I would rather have penetration over expansion.

I agree with the LCR38 .. being a pain .. I traded mine + $$$ for a LCR357 ... Its a good 38+P option and not bad with 357 Golden Sabers

In my Charter Arms 10.5 oz 38spl I use Hornady 110gr FTX standard pressure ... I also practice with LWC’s .. as using them for SD ... alot of people do ..Alot of experts back up use of the wad cutters ...

 

[msmp5]

Some of the old cops on here might remember when SWC’s were often the duty round in .38 revolvers, back in the late 1960’s to early 1970’s. IIRC, the thinking was that the SWC configuration had better “stopping power” than the LRN bullets commonly used by cops back then; but I have no idea how much testing was done - and by whom - to justify that conclusion. Re-loading wasn’t much of an issue then, as most extra ammo was carried in belt loops, or for the really ahead-of-their-time LEOs, in dump pouches. (I don’t think speed loaders started being regularly seen on cops’ belts until around the mid-1970s.)

 

[Monac]

Some of the old cops on here might remember when SWC’s were often the duty round in .38 revolvers, back in the late 1960’s to early 1970’s. IIRC, the thinking was that the SWC configuration had better “stopping power” than the LRN bullets commonly used by cops back then; but I have no idea how much testing was done - and by whom - to justify that conclusion. Re-loading wasn’t much of an issue then, as most extra ammo was carried in belt loops, or for the really ahead-of-their-time LEOs, in dump pouches. (I don’t think speed loaders started being regularly seen on cops’ belts until around the mid-1970s.)

This may be another thing I only think I know, but IIRC, the semi-wadcutter was originally designed by Elmer Keith, one of the most famous pistol experts around from about 1930 to about 1980. In fact, they were often referred to as "Keith style" bullets (once again, IIRC). He felt they had excellent stopping power if A) they were in a big caliber like 45 Colt or 44 Special, and B) they were "sharp shouldered". Please do not ask me for a cite, because I am reaching way back into the depths of my memory. However, that may be why one of the first widely accepted hollow points for police use, the so-called FBI Load, was a 158 grain SWCHP - a semi-wadcutter hollow point, loaded to +P velocity.

 

[.38 Special]

This may be another thing I only think I know, but IIRC, the semi-wadcutter was originally designed by Elmer Keith, one of the most famous pistol experts around from about 1930 to about 1980. In fact, they were often referred to as "Keith style" bullets (once again, IIRC). He felt they had excellent stopping power if A) they were in a big caliber like 45 Colt or 44 Special, and B) they were "sharp shouldered". Please do not ask me for a cite, because I am reaching way back into the depths of my memory. However, that may be why one of the first widely accepted hollow points for police use, the so-called FBI Load, was a 158 grain SWCHP - a semi-wadcutter hollow point, loaded to +P velocity.

Probably the first true semi-wadcutter was developed in 1904 - the Ideal 360271, sometimes still available as the Lyman 358271. (There is one on eBay right now for $75.)

Keith "perfected" the design with deep, square lube grooves and equal sized driving bands. They still are very good bullets, though somewhat demanding to cast. The square grooves really hold onto the lube, but also hold onto the mold, and have a tendency not to fill out. That is why "true" Keith molds are slightly rare - rounding the grooves makes for an easier cast, especially with automated machinery.

He did believe that the sharp shoulder did the killing, but that is one of the few instances where the grand old man was mistaken. Veral Smith, of Lead Bullet Technology, did some experimentation and determined that the shoulder doesn't appear to actually touch anything in flesh, flying in a "bubble" or "vacuum" created by the flat nose. That is why the shoulder was replaced by a big flat nose on many of today's handgun hunting bullets, which does seem to have significantly improved killing power.

At any rate, it did become somewhat common to refer to all SWC designs as "Keith" bullets, but technically, only his particular versions are true "Keith's".

</soapbox>

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

In snub .38s I typically carry swc, specifically magtechs 158 gr load. Shot POA in my old 85UL. About 5 years ago my BIL (brother in law) were walking down the neighborhood where we live, he was 10 at the time and I was 22, we approached a house where a rottweiler that is typically inside its gate had been able to get out. We moved to the other side and just kept walking. It started running towards us barking and hollering we kept going til it came at the side of me and bit the back of my leg. I told my BIL to back away while its focused on me, drew my .38 and shot it directly through its snout. The results were convincing of the SWC load in the snub. Yes, the dog died immediately, yes the owner was cited, I declined charges if he agreed to pay medical bills, and yes we still take walks in the same neighborhood. Now if it's a .357 snub I have more options that would allow a hollow point to expand heck even a 4 inch .38 will do that, but for a walking gun, grocery gun, the snub .38 gets my nod most times.

 

[Monac]

Thanks for clearing up what a Keith bullet is, .38 Special. In the immortal words of Ralph Wiggum, "I'm learneding!"

 

[Jim Watson]

At any rate, it did become somewhat common to refer to all SWC designs as "Keith" bullets, but technically, only his particular versions are true "Keith's".

Yes, Phil Sharpe got right heated up over that distinction. HIS semiwadcutters weighed less, had shorter bearing surface, and cast closer to diameter than the Lyman/Keith pattern. And did 1510 fps out of a .38 Special.

 

[ilbob]

years ago i worked as an armed guard. we were only allowed 38 special ammunition. the requirements were stated as lead and no hollow points.

I used lead wadcutters. I figured it was about the best I could do within the limitations I was given.

as a side benefit my practice ammo was cheap and easy to shoot.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

years ago i worked as an armed guard. we were only allowed 38 special ammunition. the requirements were stated as lead and no hollow points.

I used lead wadcutters. I figured it was about the best I could do within the limitations I was given.

as a side benefit my practice ammo was cheap and easy to shoot.

It's funny you say that. I am joining the police academy at the local college with the intent on joining a specific dept. here in Texas, the dept whom I will not name, lists that the officer supply his ammunition and that it must be HP or lead with no FMJ allowed, it didn't make sense to me from the standby say that I chose LRN there is very little difference with a small copper jacket over it then without it will function mostly the same.

 

[Dave T]

On another forum a discussion was posted and one of the participants said a J-frame in the pocket is not a gun you take to engage bad guys. It is a gun you have to dis-engage yourself from bad guys who are trying to hurt you. He carries a S&W Air-Lite loaded with Fed GMM target wadcutters and practices one handed shooting, mostly head shots at contact to 10 yards. Oh, and he spent 18 years on the streets as a cop and yes, he has seen the elephant.

Dave

 

[whm1974]

years ago i worked as an armed guard. we were only allowed 38 special ammunition. the requirements were stated as lead and no hollow points.

I used lead wadcutters. I figured it was about the best I could do within the limitations I was given.

as a side benefit my practice ammo was cheap and easy to shoot.

Are they still issuing Revolvers? Some semi-autos can handle lead bullets with no problems. But others like Glock warn their buyers not use lead at all.

 

[Kleanbore]

It is a gun you have to dis-engage yourself from bad guys who are trying to hurt you.

Well, for civilians, that applies to all defensive weapons.

 

[J-Bar]

Jim Cirillo was a NY Police Officer from the 1950s to the 1970s who was involved in a number of gun fights. I read one of his books in which he advocated wadcutters for self defense. I no longer own the book so I cannot provide quotes, and have no personal experience to share. I found his book on Amazon and took a screenshot in case anyone is interested.

 

[boom boom]

If you really want to use these, consider Federal's 130 gr. HST version,


Regarding wadcutter reloads, not recommended from a legal sense and somewhat from a tactical sense. Using reloads can cause GSR (gun shot residue) forensic analysis to different estimates of the shooting distance. It can also be a problem to introduce any defendant evidence regarding the reloads. Std. factory ammo, the GSR residuals can be reproduced by the crime lab easily and introduction of the characteristics of factory ammo by the defendant is much easier to do evidence wise. Remember, in self defense cases, for the most part, the individual bears the burden of proof as you have to admit doing the shooting as part of a justification defense.

Old THR thread about it.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...f-handloads-in-self-defense-shootings.821474/

Luckygunner review of it with gel and penetration testing, https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/tested-federal-hst-38-special-p/

Fortunately, Federal, offers these HST rounds which are designed to expand from snubbies.

You still have the problem with speedloading but if you want the 5 or 6 for sure then these are among the top in expansion (.71 in 4 inch and .73 in 2 inch) with penetration from 12-14 inches on average.

 

[shoebox1.1]

My wife is getting me that book for Father’s Day!!

 

[Riomouse911]

I have Cirillo's book, I read it again last week.

Very dated, but interesting stories.

I posted a while back about my 2.8 gr Bullseye/148 gr Berry's plated wadcutter loads bouncing off of a rubber conveyor belt target backer that our local SO uses for target stands out of 2" and 4" revolvers. This was something I have never seen before with anything I have ever shot there, from .22 LR pistols on up.

The soft recoil and shooting confidence target wadcutter loads provide are positives. Personally, I'm wanting a bit more steam from that (or any other load) before I'll stake my life on it. YMMV.

May we all never have to find out if the SD load we chooses was ineffective during a life or death encounter. Heck, for the sake of our personal safety and avoiding being prosecuted or sued by some mope, may we never be faced with firing a SD shot, period.

Stay safe.

 

[whm1974]

As far as I know. While reliability is my main issue, why give "ammo" to the prosecutor to "shoot" you with during your trial?

To make this more clear, if using reloads for self defense loadings, the Prosecutor for your JH Trial will try to convince the jury that you made the custom DIY ammo to ensure the death of person you shot.

The key here is Stopping Power, stopping your attacker from killing you or doing grave injuries.

 

[Kleanbore]

To make this more clear, if using reloads for self defense loadings, the Prosecutor for your JH Trial will try to convince the jury that you made the custom DIY ammo to ensure the death of person you shot.

I do not know hoe likely that may be--a prosecutor can say anything--but I would discount that as concern.

Of course, any really direct evidence that might go to state of mind could be harmful.

 

[whm1974]

I do not know hoe likely that may be--a prosecutor can say anything--but I would discount that as concern.

Of course, any really direct evidence that might go to state of mind could be harmful.

I would treat this subject as "Yes he certainly can say this", especially in areas where the local government is very hostile to citizens owning and defending themself with handguns.

 

[Kleanbore]

would treat this subject as "Yes he certainly can say this", especially in areas where the local government is very hostile to citizens owning and defending themself with handguns.

A prosecutor may try to use just about anything against a defendant, in any jurisdiction in the country.

That does not mean that it would have any effect.

One more time, that is nowhere near the most significant risk that a defendant who used handloads in self defense may encounter.

 

[whm1974]

A prosecutor may try to use just about anything against a defendant, in any jurisdiction in the country.

That does not mean that it would have any effect.

One more time, that is nowhere near the most significant risk that a defendant who used handloads in self defense may encounter.

Well it always been my understanding that your Intention is what matters in self defense shootings. I don't
want to give any appearance of wanting to kill someone.

 

[Kleanbore]

Well it always been my understanding that your Intention is what matters in self defense shootings. I don't
want to give any appearance of wanting to kill someone.

Well, you certainly do not want to have any evidence that might indicate a predisposition for the unnecessary us of deadly force.

Think in terms of moving toward trouble, going back to get your gun, signage saying "We Don;' Call 911" or "Protected by S&W", internet postings, etc.

The fact that it was you who loaded the propellant and seated the bullets into your cases rather than a factory will not matter much in that regard. Why would it?

But it can make a big difference in other ways.

Study this:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/carrying-handloads-for-self-defense.618021/