AlfonsDeWolf
Member
@ljnowell....quite possibly the best "self defense" .38wc here shows not quite so "flush"......https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...38-special-150-grain-lead-wadcutter-box-of-20
Wadcutters
- Thread starter 76shuvlinoff
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Averageman
Member
I used to know a retired Police Officer who claimed he used Wad Cutters loaded backwards in a snubbie .38 during his time making buys in Narcotics.
He claimed they were devastating and accurate at ranges under 15 feet.
He claimed they were devastating and accurate at ranges under 15 feet.
TimSr
Member
I do, but mine are handloads that make 950fps from my snubbie. Typical commercial wadcutters are very lightly loaded for their intended purpose of punching paper, and I would not recommend them except for the very recoil shy who just cannot handle standard loads. There are a few ammo mfgs that make defensive purpose wadcutter loads, and they are sold as such.
Wadcutters are useless in a speedloader. I can't imagine law enforcement using them with one ammo in the gun, and another in their speedloaders. Some used semi-wadcutters. I've not heard of any using wadcutters. For that matter, it was usually a soft lead semi-wadcutter hollow point.
The hollow base wadcutter backwards stories have floated around mostly unsubstantiated. While theory says they act like a giant hollow point, most testing has simply shown a lighter bullet after the skirt breaks off. Since wadcutter bullets vary immensely, accuracy results have been all over as well.
springer99
Member
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I normally carry cast LSWC in my snubbies, but many do subscribe to using WC's as a defensive load, due to their sharp, cutting profile. Now, I'm not talking about the very mild target level WC's, but reloads that use a more, shall we say stout, powder charge. Tended to be extremely accurate. I tried them, but found that reloading time was too slow. That's the only downside AFAIC.
Sistema1927
Member
The Buffalo Bore are a specialty load ($1.27 each, come on!) and are not representative of the millions of factory wadcutters that were sold for approx. $5 per box of 50 back in the day. When I started shooting .38 I would buy those, shoot them, and use the brass for my reloads. There was a Hydra-shok wadcutter bullet that looked like a backwards hollow base wadcutter that had a post in the middle.
(Not my picture, but the one in the middle.)
All of those were loaded flush with the case. I just found out that my Dad still has about a box and a half of the those Hydra-shok wadcutters that I loaded for him back in the 70's.
(Not my picture, but the one in the middle.)
All of those were loaded flush with the case. I just found out that my Dad still has about a box and a half of the those Hydra-shok wadcutters that I loaded for him back in the 70's.
Tark, have you ever tried loading HBWC backwards or are you just advocating something you've heard.
If your bullet is tumbling in flight there is something wrong with your bullet and/or your load. The reason a HBWC loaded normally penetrates well is the weight of the bullet is forward. RNL and to a lesser extent SWC tumble when they hit the target is because the weight is to the rear. What usually happens is when the bullet encounters resistance it swaps ends as inertia takes over. This is what happens to the HBWC as I explained in post #24. All this tumbling reduces penetration.
I fired HBWC loaded backwards to 25 yds and found no evidence of tumbling in flight. If you want to do this heavy loads can cause a ring of lead in the forcing cone enough to cause an obstruction loading HBWC either way.
If your bullet is tumbling in flight there is something wrong with your bullet and/or your load. The reason a HBWC loaded normally penetrates well is the weight of the bullet is forward. RNL and to a lesser extent SWC tumble when they hit the target is because the weight is to the rear. What usually happens is when the bullet encounters resistance it swaps ends as inertia takes over. This is what happens to the HBWC as I explained in post #24. All this tumbling reduces penetration.
I fired HBWC loaded backwards to 25 yds and found no evidence of tumbling in flight. If you want to do this heavy loads can cause a ring of lead in the forcing cone enough to cause an obstruction loading HBWC either way.
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This is the long and short for me. The 148 DEWC and the hollow base wadcutter. I mostly use these in my revolver but they function perfectly in my 52, so I just load them this way. The bullet is protruding minimally, but a bullseye linemate who uses the same seating feels they allow for the "lubricity" of the bullet to ease feeding. He also feels that loading the HBWC for the 50 yard line with the same powder charge does not require sight correction from the DEWC loading at the 25 yard line, due to the increased pressure from the decreased case space. With my 8" barrel, I just use the DEWC and leave the scope adjustment alone.
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ThomasT
Member
I have loaded HBWC bullets backwards several times and never have got good consistent results. Some would expand. Some just mashed the hollow flat. Some would hit a water bottle and shear off to the side. I gave up on the idea. Jan Libourel stated in one article that the Speer HBWC worked better because the base was shaped better than the hornady or remington bullets. That is the nose has become the base when loaded reversed.
I like WC for a carry load but I use the solid Lee bullets I cast. I can push them to 900fps or so from a snubby and they slap water bottles really hard. I also seat them out about a quarter inch and they feed through my marlin 357 lever gun.
Save your brass. Factory loaded WC brass has a longer seating area so the base isn't sized down from the internal case taper. Here is an article explaining that.
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/38wadcutterQA.htm
I like WC for a carry load but I use the solid Lee bullets I cast. I can push them to 900fps or so from a snubby and they slap water bottles really hard. I also seat them out about a quarter inch and they feed through my marlin 357 lever gun.
Save your brass. Factory loaded WC brass has a longer seating area so the base isn't sized down from the internal case taper. Here is an article explaining that.
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/38wadcutterQA.htm
dickydalton
Member
Excellent article, Ratshooter. Thank you.
BobWright
Member
tark said:
Can you document a case where this was ever an issue in court? I've heard this many times, but never have seen nor heard of it being a fact.
A person used deadly force. What does the ammunition matter? In my state (Tennessee) is the shooting is ruled self defense, no court date.
Bob Wright
Can you document a case where this was ever an issue in court? I've heard this many times, but never have seen nor heard of it being a fact.
A person used deadly force. What does the ammunition matter? In my state (Tennessee) is the shooting is ruled self defense, no court date.
Bob Wright
BobWright
Member
One other point in favor of .38 Special wadcutters - they are perfect for small edible game such as rabbits or squirrels. For the big swamp rabbits they are a more certain kill than a .22.
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
ThomasT
Member
Bob I have asked several cops about using handloads for SD and each and every one of them has looked at me like I grew a third eye. Not one single one could think of a reason handloads would be a problem.
If it is a justified shooting that seems to be all that matters. And that came from my uncle who was a homicide cop on the Ft Worth PD and later an investigator in the D.A.s office. So I think his information is reliable.
If it is a justified shooting that seems to be all that matters. And that came from my uncle who was a homicide cop on the Ft Worth PD and later an investigator in the D.A.s office. So I think his information is reliable.
OP
OP
76shuvlinoff
Member
I also don't understand how which tool I use to legally defend my life or the lives of others, matters. On the other hand, I am not a litigator.
ljnowell
Member
So you found a boutique ammo manufacturer that is loading cast wadcutters to over standard pressures and loading them that way. Congrats. Perhaps you should go back and read my post again. It said most manufacturers, not all. Those are not loaded for target use, as most wadcutters are.
I stand by my statement that nearly all commercial wadcutters are loaded flush. Period.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Take a look at how they seated .38 Spl Wad in 1931.
That was before the invention of the Model 52 S&W, and Colt 1911 Match auto pistols.
The intent then was to get the wad cutter into the chamber throat for better bore alignment.
Once again, the flush seated wad cutter is a recent innovation, directly traceable to the coming of age of the .38 Spl. Match autos in the 1960's.
Forth row down, second from right:
rc
That was before the invention of the Model 52 S&W, and Colt 1911 Match auto pistols.
The intent then was to get the wad cutter into the chamber throat for better bore alignment.
Once again, the flush seated wad cutter is a recent innovation, directly traceable to the coming of age of the .38 Spl. Match autos in the 1960's.
Forth row down, second from right:
rc
ApacheCoTodd
member
Anybody here load .357 Wadcutters?
Just got to thinking, looking at RC's post, about jump and shooting .38WCs in .357s...
Anyone use WCs in .357 cases?
Todd.
Just got to thinking, looking at RC's post, about jump and shooting .38WCs in .357s...
Anyone use WCs in .357 cases?
Todd.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Yes.
I also seat wad 1/8" or more long in .38 for use in .38 Spl. revolvers.
For the reason stated above.
Here's a better photo from the 1931 Colt catalog.
rc
I also seat wad 1/8" or more long in .38 for use in .38 Spl. revolvers.
For the reason stated above.
Here's a better photo from the 1931 Colt catalog.
rc
The term "recent" being relative. The 60s were 50-some years ago. For those not yet gray, it probably seems like a long time ago. When I started shooting, the 30's werent quite as far back as the 60s are now (the 30's seemed like back into antiquity at the time), and they don't seem that long ago.
I have a mold for the type bullet you mention. Ive never seen factory ammo with that type bullets, but have seen them in older Shooters Bibles. The change to the hollow base flush seated wadcutters may have been seen as an improvement for more reason than to fit the auto loaders. The bit about seating deeper to reduce case volume with the light charges may be part of that. Speculation. It would be interesting if anyone had more information about the reason for the changes.
Not picking on you RC, just had to chuckle at the "recent" part of your comment. Been a very interesting discussion. The link to Ed Harris' piece was good. If anyone chose to skip it, its worth looking at. All of Eds writing that Ive seen has been good.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
For what it's worth.
When I shot for 5th. Army AMU in the late 70's, we had two kinds of wad cutter mid-range match ammo.
Remington was loaded about 3/32" out of the case and was used in K-38 S&W revolvers.
Winchester was loaded flush with the case mouth for use in Model 52 S&W pistols.
I tested them both in both guns in a Ransom rest more then once.
The long seated Remington shot noticeably better in the revolvers.
The flush seat Winchesters shot better in the Model 52's.
Because the Remington's wouldn't fit in the magazines!!!
rc
When I shot for 5th. Army AMU in the late 70's, we had two kinds of wad cutter mid-range match ammo.
Remington was loaded about 3/32" out of the case and was used in K-38 S&W revolvers.
Winchester was loaded flush with the case mouth for use in Model 52 S&W pistols.
I tested them both in both guns in a Ransom rest more then once.
The long seated Remington shot noticeably better in the revolvers.
The flush seat Winchesters shot better in the Model 52's.
Because the Remington's wouldn't fit in the magazines!!!
rc
ljnowell
Member
I believe recent is very relative. Regardless it doesn't change the fact that wadcutters are generally loaded flush to the case mouth by factory ammo companies.
I've loaded them in 357 cases. I shoot a 357 in NRA Bullseye, but I load them in 38 cases because, even though people will insist it does, it really doesn't matter.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
They are now.
They didn't used to be.
As I have already said.
rc
AlfonsDeWolf
Member
@ljnowell.......standard pressure here, https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=111
CajunBass
Member
"Back in the day"...When I bought my first handgun, there was a small mom & pop gunshop near me that sold factory reloaded wadcutters for I don't know...four, five bucks a box. Mixed brass, rounds just dumped into the box. Box sealed with Scotch tape. They were cheap so I shot the snot out of them. They were great. I saved my brass.
Before too long I got my first reloading set. A Lee "Wack A Mole" Loader. With a can of Bullseye powder, some primers, a box of 500 HBWC's, and all that brass, I was in business. I got no idea how many thousands of them I put up, but you can do a bunch of wadcutters with a pound of Bullseye.
I tried the reversing trick a few times. Man, that hole in the end of the case was impressive. The only thing I ever shot with them was a bank of damp Virginia red clay. Those reverse wadcutters made an impressive crater in that. A LOT bigger than a standard WC round.
Before too long I got my first reloading set. A Lee "Wack A Mole" Loader. With a can of Bullseye powder, some primers, a box of 500 HBWC's, and all that brass, I was in business. I got no idea how many thousands of them I put up, but you can do a bunch of wadcutters with a pound of Bullseye.
I tried the reversing trick a few times. Man, that hole in the end of the case was impressive. The only thing I ever shot with them was a bank of damp Virginia red clay. Those reverse wadcutters made an impressive crater in that. A LOT bigger than a standard WC round.
Cocked & Locked
Member
Yes Sir I do...in .44 special. I hand-load them. Haven't shot any factory loaded WC's in years.
210 grain solid base wadcutters...
250 grain solid base wadcutters...
Also hand-load some .38 special 160 grain solid base wadcutters butdon't have a picture of them.
kBob
Member
You guys are going to kill me yet.
I just spent the last quarter hour out in the shop uncovering and dragging out a steel chest of "haven't loaded these in a while "bullets. OW, my sore back! Oh, my stubbed toes.
Yet I did not find what I was looking for.
Way back when GSG9 got famous, they had an issue. The commander used a .38 special snubbie and felt he had had a failure.
A call was put out to all patriotic German bullet manufacturers and one bullet was selected.
IIRC it was a 112 grain copper washed wadcutterish bullet. I say wad cutterish because it was a flat nosed cylinder and it had the traditional Hollow Base of the HBWC. The front side though rather than being flat or having that cute stub of many BBWC style bullets had a large hollow point. This HP was as big around as the Hollow base, ,but was only half as deep as its diameter.
As it happened while I was in Europe in the early 1980's someone handed me a couple of boxes with no instructions or reloading data.
The copper wash seemed more to be the sort of electro plate or even actual luballoy wash Winchester used than a metal jacket. The were rather hard as a result compared to your typical "peanut butter" HBWC.
Lacking load data I went through most of one of the one hundred round boxes playing with them in .38 Special and .357Mag. Loaded a few at a time, flush, 1/3 out almost half out. Hot loads target loads. HB forward HP forward.
Suddenly it occurred to me I might never get anymore so I stopped experimenting and put them away......somewhere.
I briefly carried a few loaded rounds HP out 1/3 out of the case in .357 in a warm load in my M19 six inch briefcase gun. After an inciedent involving cars in our area I swapped them out for Norma 158 FMJ SWC silly hot. It unfortunately did not occur to me that those were not imported into the US and those are all gone.
Any how I never got to shoot anything but paper with those. Those loaded HP forward and HB back regardless of power or position flew straight to 25 meters. Those loaded Hot "backwards" had a tendency to get unstable and those loaded with a more sane charge still had some slight key holing at 25 yards maybe half the time.
At least the trip through that bottom of the stack, insanely heavy steel box did reveal that I have multiple choices for loading a few boxes of various .38 wad cutters and other things. Like three different flavors of 150 grain .308 spire point for the Savage 110 or 03A3 I forgot I had and a couple of boxes of the old hornady FP-FMJ 230 grain .45 and even a box of my old favorite .45 ( in anything including 1911types Sig 220, Smith 25 and 1917 and Black hawks and even silly hot loads in the .45 Colt black hawk) the speer 200 grain flying ashtray.
Even found a few of the ancient 185 grain SWC Target heavy FMJ .45 ACP tucked in there. The last CSMJ I worked with kept one such round loaded rather hot in the chamber of his 1911 followed by a mag of standard FMJ 230 RN. He also gave such a round to his driver and clerk to keep chambered.
Still you guys hurt my back AND now I am PO'ed that I can not find those kraut fight stoppers, reminds me the title of them on the box was "man stoppers"
-kBob
I just spent the last quarter hour out in the shop uncovering and dragging out a steel chest of "haven't loaded these in a while "bullets. OW, my sore back! Oh, my stubbed toes.
Yet I did not find what I was looking for.
Way back when GSG9 got famous, they had an issue. The commander used a .38 special snubbie and felt he had had a failure.
A call was put out to all patriotic German bullet manufacturers and one bullet was selected.
IIRC it was a 112 grain copper washed wadcutterish bullet. I say wad cutterish because it was a flat nosed cylinder and it had the traditional Hollow Base of the HBWC. The front side though rather than being flat or having that cute stub of many BBWC style bullets had a large hollow point. This HP was as big around as the Hollow base, ,but was only half as deep as its diameter.
As it happened while I was in Europe in the early 1980's someone handed me a couple of boxes with no instructions or reloading data.
The copper wash seemed more to be the sort of electro plate or even actual luballoy wash Winchester used than a metal jacket. The were rather hard as a result compared to your typical "peanut butter" HBWC.
Lacking load data I went through most of one of the one hundred round boxes playing with them in .38 Special and .357Mag. Loaded a few at a time, flush, 1/3 out almost half out. Hot loads target loads. HB forward HP forward.
Suddenly it occurred to me I might never get anymore so I stopped experimenting and put them away......somewhere.
I briefly carried a few loaded rounds HP out 1/3 out of the case in .357 in a warm load in my M19 six inch briefcase gun. After an inciedent involving cars in our area I swapped them out for Norma 158 FMJ SWC silly hot. It unfortunately did not occur to me that those were not imported into the US and those are all gone.
Any how I never got to shoot anything but paper with those. Those loaded HP forward and HB back regardless of power or position flew straight to 25 meters. Those loaded Hot "backwards" had a tendency to get unstable and those loaded with a more sane charge still had some slight key holing at 25 yards maybe half the time.
At least the trip through that bottom of the stack, insanely heavy steel box did reveal that I have multiple choices for loading a few boxes of various .38 wad cutters and other things. Like three different flavors of 150 grain .308 spire point for the Savage 110 or 03A3 I forgot I had and a couple of boxes of the old hornady FP-FMJ 230 grain .45 and even a box of my old favorite .45 ( in anything including 1911types Sig 220, Smith 25 and 1917 and Black hawks and even silly hot loads in the .45 Colt black hawk) the speer 200 grain flying ashtray.
Even found a few of the ancient 185 grain SWC Target heavy FMJ .45 ACP tucked in there. The last CSMJ I worked with kept one such round loaded rather hot in the chamber of his 1911 followed by a mag of standard FMJ 230 RN. He also gave such a round to his driver and clerk to keep chambered.
Still you guys hurt my back AND now I am PO'ed that I can not find those kraut fight stoppers, reminds me the title of them on the box was "man stoppers"
-kBob
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