Walther PPK... opinions... suggestions...

[Ryan in the House]

Hello all. I am brand new to the gun world, and am interested in getting my first firearm.

I have been seriously considering the Walther PPK, but I hear a lot of bad reviews of it having misfires (and about the same number of reviews saying it doesn't). I am not sure exactly what a misfire is, but I am sure it's something unfavorable.

I am aware that Walther PPK has been distributed by Smith & Wesson in the USA, but if I were to buy a S&W/Walther PPK tomorrow, what are the chances it's going to be a reliable gun? Is it a 50/50 gamble?

I hear there's a breaking-in period for all new guns. Could someone tell me about that... and is the breaking-in period the main reason why so many people experience misfires with the PPK?

The model I am looking into is the standard PPK (6+1 round), 9mm short, in Stainless Steel (which I hear is better than the Blue because the blueing would wear off).

Also, I heard that the gun "bites" the shooter. Could someone tell me about that?

Thanks!

 

[Mulliga]

Welcome to THR!

A misfire generally means a hammer dropping on a firing pin and not setting off the primer of the cartridge, and thus not firing the bullet.

The "bite" you are referring to is "hammer bite." When a pistol with an exposed hammer cocks itself after the first round is fired and the slide goes back, sometimes the shooter's hand is in the way of the hammer (OUCH). The design of a gun can cause this to happen (everyone's hands are different), and in the PPK's case, I believe one thread here showed that sometimes the frame of the gun itself can cause irritation.

I've never owned a PPK. There are MANY other small frame .380 brands that you should also take a hard look at (Bersa and Kel-tec, to name two, but many of the major manufacturers put out a .380 of some kind). Why are you buying a firearm? Is this gun just for fun and practice, or for self-defense?

 

[denfoote]

PPK

First, welcome to THR!!!

Second, in answer to your question, there is nothing wrong with the PPK.
I have a Smith PPK/S in 9mm kurz (.380acp) that I have not had any problem with.
I also have a vintage Manhurin PP in the original caliber: .32acp (7.65mm) that has not given me any trouble.

However, I do prefer the Makarov. It chambers a more potent caliber (9mm Makarov) and will cost less than the PPK.

Look for one of these.




Aim Surplus has them for $139.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/index.html

 

[dfariswheel]

No one can tell you if you'll have problems with a new pistol of any brand.
In that respect, buying any modern machine is a crap shoot.

The bright side is, if you buy a new Walther/S&W PPK you're buying it from the biggest pistol maker in the world, with an excellent reputation for taking care of customer quality complaints.

In other words, even if you do happen to get a problem gun S&W WILL make it right.

The problem with hammer or slide "bite" has been greatly reduced due to a modified, slightly lengthened grip tang on the new S&W made guns.

Much of the stories of Walther PP problems are from the later days when the guns were still being made for InterArms, and quality fell.

If you want a new PPK, buy it. If there is a problem, S&W will make it right.

 

[Ryan in the House]

Hey, thanks for the replies, everyone!

"Why are you buying a firearm? Is this gun just for fun and practice, or for self-defense?"

I have a couple reasons. First, my grandpa was a gun collector (as well as an inventor). He had an interest in guns, and I guess the interest was carried down to my generation from having memories of shooting the BB gun pistol in the basement against a styrofoam target, or him teaching us about gun safety. I am sure that is where part of my interest comes from. I also plan on taking the handgun to the range; my cousins are both fans of guns, so I bet they could teach me a thing or two about shooting. As for the self-defense portion of it... well, I doubt I'd need the gun for that. I could apply for a License to Conceal, and I probably will, because that will make me feel safer when I am out alone at night than not having any protection at all.

Whatever the case is... something has gotten my interest in handguns up, and I'd like to pursue it!

"However, I do prefer the Makarov. It chambers a more potent caliber (9mm Makarov) and will cost less than the PPK."

I've heard people say that, and I appreciate your suggestion, but there's something about the Walther PPK that attracts my interest. The price for it, I figure, is about $450 new? Even if I could buy a Makarov for less than $200, I'd probably still want the Walther. It's not even the more powerful round I am looking into. I guess I'm pretty stuck on wanting the Walther... I heard so many reviews about it jamming, about this hammer bite, and about the Makarov... and my interest in the Walther is STILL 100%! That's dedication. Might be foolish to dedicate my effort into just one gun, but I can't get my eyes or my mind of the PPK.

 

[denfoote]

Here is some drooling material!!!

If you are into PPs:

 

[Ala Dan]

From my experiences with Walther's PPK and PPK/S, I can
attest to several factors:

1. Yes, these guns have a tendency to "bite" the webbing of
your shooting hand.

2. Quality varies. My experiences with both firearms are
positive in nature. My first two were German manufactuered
PPK/S that performed flawlessly; and served me well as my
personal protection firearms for a brief time.

Also, my American made stainless steel PPK (original model
from InterArms) has been a wonderful experience; with 0
malfunctions of any kind, even with JHP ammo. It serves as
my daughters personal defense weapon of choice today.
Its stoked with Federal's 90 grain JHP "Hydra-Shok's"; but
the 102 grain Gold Dots from Speer would probably be a
bit better choice; if required to shoot thru heavy clothing.

3. I've had NO bad experiences with any of these weapons.
Some reports of "jamming" (FTF, FTE, etc.) could be caused
by the shooter "limp wristing", a term we use for improper
grip of a firearm while shooting the weapon.

Hope this helps sort out facts from fiction!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[obiwan1]

Mine used to FTE. That's what got me into handloading. Bump up the power and no more stovepipes. If you buy one, break it in and then try various loads for functioning. Go with 100% reliability. Nothing else will do. In factory loads I like CorBons. No malfunctions for me. By the way, mine was made in 1967 and I bought it new. I used to carry it in a Rybka pocket holster. It's semi retired now due to more modern guns that I own (Kahr and KelTec) and requirements of the job (Beretta and H&K).

 

[MICHAEL T]

I have a old Interarms stainless PPK/S that I love its my CCW. But a lot of people seem to have trouble with them. S&W has fixed the hammer bite. My experiance has been good but you might consider a Bersa380 its a PPK clone and you can buy 2 for about the price of a PPK/S from Smith. Bersa are 99.9% trouble and have a better trigger My 10 year old loves to shoot mine and she dislikes my PPK/S says it kicks to hard. If you buy a PPK keep it well lubed and shoot go factory ammo and you should be all right.

 

[nero45acp]

I've owned 2 PPk's and 2 PP's, 3 in .32acp, 1 in .22LR. They are neat guns with a long history and a certain cool factor (James Bond and all). They are accurate (fixed barrel), very easy to field-strip and clean, and for the most part reliable (some are more finicky, especially magazine/ammo-wise than others).

Due to it's direct blow-back design, the PP and PPK feel a little snappier in recoil than some other pistols of the same caliber (this will be especially noticeable in the .380 model--which is why I only owned the .22LR and .32acp PP/PPK's). I have found that people with large hands have more problems with the PP/PPk biting them than those with small hands.

You didn't say what you wanted the PPK for, but based on my experience and the cost of factory .380 ammo, I would strongly suggest you consider something like a SIG P239 in 9mm. The P239 is small enough for concealed carry, it's accurate, stone cold reliable, easy to field-strip and clean, and 9mm (Luger) ammo is more effective and cheaper than .380. Also, I think that you'll find the P239 9mm more fun to shoot at the range than the PPK .380. If you're not worried about concealed carry, consider the SIG P225 (small hands) or the P226, P228, P229 for average/larger hands. Whatever you decide, best wishes!


nero

 

[erikd65]

If I had the choice between a PPK/S and a Bersa Thunder 380 knowing what I know now, I would go for the Bersa.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Welcome to the High Road.

I'd recommend starting with a .22 long rifle plinker rather than a center fire pistol: less expensive to shoot, more likely to last awhile, and the accuracy skills you build with the .22 are directly transferable to larger calibers.

I'd recommend against buying the PPK: Smith & Wesson has quality control problems, and the gun itself isn't the most modern or reliable design. I have an Interarms PPK that's worked out well; long after buying it, however, I discovered it's the exception rather than the rule. An older German-made PPK would be a better bet in terms or reliability, but a.) the .380 A.C.P. is a marginal cartridge for self-defense, and b.) the recoil is likely to encourage you to develop bad shooting habits.

 

[Ryan in the House]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I'm going to create a new thread to account for some other handguns I have been interested in. I hope you'll all join me there.

I'd recommend starting with a .22 long rifle plinker rather than a center fire pistol: less expensive to shoot, more likely to last awhile, and the accuracy skills you build with the .22 are directly transferable to larger calibers.

My mom owns a Ruger Mk. II that fires .22 LR. It belonged to my grandpa, and he adjusted it with new sights for target shooting. I could take that gun out to shoot, but I'll make sure it's in working condition before I do - it's a pretty old gun, and it has been laying around (hidden, of course) without a closed case for a while. What I got from my grandpa was a Colt .45 1917 Revolver. I'll have to get that inspected before I fire it, too; again, the age, and it's been stashed away with no case.

I'm interested in buying my own first gun, though. Hand-me-downs are nice, but there's something about buying your own stuff.

 

[horge]

I'm usually the first to recommend a Bersa Thunder 380 over a Walther PPK.

However, you've been bitten by the PPK bug.
That's almost as bad as the 1911 bug.

Accept no substitutes and learn, learn, learn about the PPK's history:
which factories made and/or still make it; when;
and what difference that makes in terms of quality.

Be prepared for a heavy trigger and an unforgiving slide.
It wasn't so much 'hammer bite' that I encountered with a borrowed PPK.
It was getting my thumb webbing sliced by the recoiling slide
I guess that's called 'slide bite'.

 

[Ryan in the House]

I can compromise. Of course, I really want the PPK, but I am willing to compromise if there is just too much wrong with it.

I can stand the recoil. I'll get used to it... I don't plan on stopping my interest in guns because they kick. Hell, I plan to shoot a .50 AE some day, so I gotta get used to the recoil. So, I dont mind if the PPK kicks like an aggitated mule.

The "hammer bite" and "slide bite" might get on my nerves... because I dont want to have to wear gloves everytime I go out shooting. I'd like to do it in a natural position, the same position I would be in if I was forced to use the gun to defend myself. So if the biting is that bad, I might consider (along with other factors) to get a different handgun.

No one here has talked about misfires, that's a good thing.

As for the weakness of the 9mm short (and I might be the only one around here that prefers to call it that) bullet, it does not bother me. If need be, I'll be defended with the PPK; I'm positive. The bullet is going to pierce skin, and it's going to hurt like hell... and for most people, that's going to be enough. I'm more interested in getting the gun because I have been drooling over it for months... but like I said, I can compromise if the gun is REALLY bad!

 

[Johnny Guest]

Hammer bite/Slide bite

Interesting observations. I wouldn't predict that a given shooter WILL necessarily experience a bitten hand. I believe this has to do with the size/shape of the shooter's hand and the particular Walther being used. I note the PP illustrated in denfoote's post has a very sharp lower rear edge of the slide. I'll bet THAT one could be pretty harsh! Looking at the ones shown at
http://www.waltheramerica.com/ppk.htm
however, this area is radiused.

I've owned several PPKs, in both .32 and .380, and never experienced this "bite," even when I weighed 50 pounds more than now. I have fairly large hands (Size 8-1/2 surgical glove.) The only PPK I now own is a 9mm Kurz from 1966. With a sloppy or hastily acquired hold, I note very slight marks on my hand where the slide rides over it, but no cuts or bites. I have often been grateful for the nice finishing touch on the slide bottom.

Ryan in the House, if you just plain WANT a PPK, then you should get one. I have a pal who wanted a P.08 Luger so badly he could taste it, and he recently got one. He's now learning the joys of the care and feeding of this particular marque. In three weeks, he's already discarded his fantasy about concealed carry of his prize . . . .

Elder Son's former roommate took a shine to a Webley .38 I owned some years back. I finally sold it to him for a lot less than he was willing to pay - - It was embarrassing, but I couldn't take advantage of his intense LONGING for that ugly little revolver . . . .

There was a time when the pocket Walthers were state of the art, but that time is now long past. I liken them to the Thompson Submachine Gun - - Truly wunnerful back in the day, but that day is gone. Those two guns are admirable examples of the firearm as an art form. I have one of each, and neither is for sale. I shoot both and enjoy them, but I don't deceive myself: I have other arms to do the same jobs, more efficiently, more compactly, lighter, and equal or greater in power.

Having attained your heart's desire for your first handgun, you may then wish to get a nice quality .22 to hone your shooting skills . . . .

Best wishes,
Johnny

 

[Forseti]

Never did like the PPK. I was "seduced" by the movie factor...maybe it was the best available concealable pistol when Ian Flemming was writing his Bond books in the 1950's, but that's not true now...

1) It does bite your hand.

2) The one I used tended to jam feeding hollow point bullets. If you do get one, test test test with regular FMJ rounds and what you think you may be using if it is something other than FMJ rounds.


If you want something in that size, I would take a hard look at the Sig Sauer P230/P232 line...

For maximum concealability (if that is your primary purpose) take a hard look at the Kel Tec P3AT. Costs less.

No movie connection, but they both do their job very well.

 

[erikd65]

Ryan, I will sell you my PPK/S stainless (S&W model). Email me at [email protected] if interested.

 

[Jaco]

Ryan,

Get yourself a real German Walther or a Manurhin Walther in .32ACP. There is a very small chance that you will ever have problems. I have put a few 1000 rounds through mine, and that is good for a pocket pistol. And I have had precisely two jams, both ammo related....

 

[Gunnutz13]

My two cents...

Hey RYAN...

If your choice has anything to do with concealed carry, both of the aforementioned firearms, a Makarov in 9x18 or a PPK/s in .380 acp would make good defensive, easy to hide belly guns, with a nod to the more powerful Mak. Having said that, and having both weapons...my choice is usually the PPK/s because it is the smaller of the two. If I want deep concealment, I give up a little power. However, if you want a target gun, you may want a smaller caliber, like 22lr or a bigger caliber like 9mm, as .380acp and 9x18 Makarov are not considered accurate long range target rounds.( wow...watch this start a thread... :banghead: Attached are real lousy pics of both: the East German PPK/s made in 1972, and the East German Makarov, made in 1977.... (I gotta re-shoot my collection)

 

[para.2]

Had a PPK/S 25+ years ago. It was the best, most problematic concealed carry piece I ever owned. However, I'm not sorry I no longer have it.

Best, because, no matter how I carried it, pocket, iwb, Stuufed into my waistband "mexican", whatever, it simply disappeared! Also, it was scary accurate. Out to about 50 yards, if I could see it, I could hit it!

Problematic, because I could not shoot it without it hurting me. The grooved trigger raised blisters and then made my trigger finger bleed. The slide might as well have been made by Gillette, or some other razor company. The shape of my hand, and the way the pistol fit, I literally could not shoot it without bleeding! If I look closely in direct sunlight, I can still see the scars on my right hand. Talk about love/hate!



(edited due to too much whiskey!)

 

[Standing Wolf]

Is it a 50/50 gamble?

If you're lucky.

 

[JohnKSa]

My out of the house carry gun is a stainless U.S. made Interarms PPK in .380. It has never jammed with any kind of ammo.

It is very accurate and I can shoot it very rapidly while still making good hits. It carries well and conceals very well. It is a safe design and it has never offered to rust even though it's hot here and it has definitely been sweated on a lot.

I recommend that you NOT buy PPK.

The sights are TINY.
The DA trigger is atrocious--easily the heaviest I've ever encountered.
The recoil spring is pretty stiff and when new, it's sometimes hard to get the first round chambered.
The newer guns don't seem to be as reliable as mine is.
It seems that I was lucky to get a reliable one even at the time I bought mine.
I've done a good bit of work "deburring", "derazoring", and "decornering" my pistol. Before all of that, it was fairly good at poking me in places better left unpoked as well as cutting up my hand when I shot it without being careful about my grip.
It has more recoil than you might expect and is not a tremendously fun gun to shoot.

 

[Combat-wombat]

After handling a new one (not actually shooting it), I can definitely see what JohnKSa is talking about. The DA pull is horrible, and it's difficult to pull the slide back seeing that it's such a small gun (with such a strong recoil spring).

However, the PPK is just plain cool. I'd love to have one, just for its good looks and classic "007" image. Also, it's a defensive gun---Assuming you get used to the trigger pull and slide pullback, my inexperienced opinion says it'd be fine for a carry/SD gun.

 

[MrMurphy]

The newer S&W PPks have a beavertail to help against slide bite.


Some insights:

I've shot six Walther PPs and PPk's extensively over about ten years. Never owned one, but shot a bunch. Yes, they can bite you. I have smallish hands and still got bit once or twice.

Grooved trigger never bothered me.

They're accurate, but of the six I've shot four had reliability problems (including one WW2 era model, made by Walther in .32, which is generally the MOST reliable Walther PPks). The sights suck.

I bought a Bersa Thunder .380 for half the price ($269), better sights, less recoil, looks and feels very similar in the hand (almost identical in fact). More accurate, and zero reliability problems in over 300 rounds without even cleaning it, from the box. Traded it to a friend for a work gun, or I'd still have it. His sister promptly claimed it for her carry gun.

And the Bersa had no hammer bite.


As a carry gun, the Kahr K9 is the same weight or so, it's a 9mm parabellum (stronger round), you get 8 shots, MUCH better trigger and sights, for the same cost ($500). it's also almost identical in size. If anything, it's thinner.