razorback2003
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What are the pros and cons of the full sized Smith M&P compared to the new Walther PPQ and Sig 2022? Quality control when manufactured, reliability, rust resistance, cost?
Walther PPQ VS Smith M&P VS Sig 2022
- Thread starter razorback2003
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I have owned all 3 at one point or another. They are all excellent guns in their own way.
The SIG is usually found in traditional double action. So you need to decide if that is the type of trigger that you want. Also the SIG is a chunky gun for what it is.
The M&P is a great gun but it is not perfect. The trigger could be better. The gun to me tends to feel a little "cheap" compared to the other 2 guns.
The Walther PPQ is pretty much the perfect gun. It is well made, nicely designed, accurate, reliable and has a fantastic trigger.
The SIG is usually found in traditional double action. So you need to decide if that is the type of trigger that you want. Also the SIG is a chunky gun for what it is.
The M&P is a great gun but it is not perfect. The trigger could be better. The gun to me tends to feel a little "cheap" compared to the other 2 guns.
The Walther PPQ is pretty much the perfect gun. It is well made, nicely designed, accurate, reliable and has a fantastic trigger.
I cannot think of a better plastic frame DA/SA pistol than a SP2022.
However, DA/SA is not the best trigger available for me.
I perfer M&P over PPQ for a number of reasons.
-The grip is more ergonomic for me. PPQ's grip felt more fatter, and I especially did not like the hump on the back strap that narrows kind of pointy.
-The bore axis is lower, and has less muzzle flip.
-M&P trigger is improved. It smoothens out as users shoot it, and once it is smoothened out, it feels quite good to me. PPQ trigger is also nice, but few I tried had a trigger resistance that was lighter than the advertised 5 lbs, and it was too light for me. I don't like the hinge on the M&P trigger, but then again I did not particularly like the wider PPQ trigger's feel better either.
-PPQ comes with plastic sights, and the rear sight notch was too wide for my liking. It makes precision shots harder compared to sights that came with M&P or SIG. PPQ front sight is held by a tiny, and I mean TINY, screw which made its durability questionable for me.
- I find 40S&W PPQ's reliability to be very questionable.
- M&P has higher capacity.
- Easier to get support or parts for M&P.
There were few things I liked about a PPQ better than M&P. I liked the size better. Also, the quality of plastic molding was better. S&W and Glock for some reason just can't get their front side of the frame to be perfectly straight. And, the PPQ trigger is smoother out of the box.
However, DA/SA is not the best trigger available for me.
I perfer M&P over PPQ for a number of reasons.
-The grip is more ergonomic for me. PPQ's grip felt more fatter, and I especially did not like the hump on the back strap that narrows kind of pointy.
-The bore axis is lower, and has less muzzle flip.
-M&P trigger is improved. It smoothens out as users shoot it, and once it is smoothened out, it feels quite good to me. PPQ trigger is also nice, but few I tried had a trigger resistance that was lighter than the advertised 5 lbs, and it was too light for me. I don't like the hinge on the M&P trigger, but then again I did not particularly like the wider PPQ trigger's feel better either.
-PPQ comes with plastic sights, and the rear sight notch was too wide for my liking. It makes precision shots harder compared to sights that came with M&P or SIG. PPQ front sight is held by a tiny, and I mean TINY, screw which made its durability questionable for me.
- I find 40S&W PPQ's reliability to be very questionable.
- M&P has higher capacity.
- Easier to get support or parts for M&P.
There were few things I liked about a PPQ better than M&P. I liked the size better. Also, the quality of plastic molding was better. S&W and Glock for some reason just can't get their front side of the frame to be perfectly straight. And, the PPQ trigger is smoother out of the box.
Also take into consideration, parts, holsters, magazines, and customizing goodies.
I loved the M&P 9c I used to have. I've shot a friends 2022 and it's a super fun and affordable sig. Walther....well I've looked at them. ??? I suppose if you have one some people may think you have an HK.
I loved the M&P 9c I used to have. I've shot a friends 2022 and it's a super fun and affordable sig. Walther....well I've looked at them. ??? I suppose if you have one some people may think you have an HK.
If you can get the new PPQ (is the M2?), I would take that over the other two choices. It doesn't have that god awful HK-style mag release. I don't care what anyone says. It isn't faster to sweep a finger down awkwardly than to squeeze your thumb inward. You can train yourself to do it, but why add more things to "train" when you don't need to?
1. SP2022 is bulkier, and you don't really need it to be. Other than that it's a good gun.
2. The M&P has a hinge in the middle of the trigger. NO THANKS! Feels mushy.
3. If it's the Gen 1 PPQ with the aforementioned trigger guard mag release, forget what I said and get the SP2022.
1. SP2022 is bulkier, and you don't really need it to be. Other than that it's a good gun.
2. The M&P has a hinge in the middle of the trigger. NO THANKS! Feels mushy.
3. If it's the Gen 1 PPQ with the aforementioned trigger guard mag release, forget what I said and get the SP2022.
razorback2003
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I have shot a Sig 2022 9mm and it seemed to be a pretty solid gun with a smooth DA trigger pull and crisp SA.
One M&P 9mm I shot repeatedly threw brass at my head with different brands of ammo and had extractor problems. Another M&P 40 full size would release the slide when a magazine was inserted in the gun. The slide stop did not have to be pushed for the slide to go forward.
I haven't had a chance to try out the new PPQ. I looked at one at a store and besides the cheap sights, it seemed like a solid gun. It had a tad light, but very smooth trigger and good grip.
One M&P 9mm I shot repeatedly threw brass at my head with different brands of ammo and had extractor problems. Another M&P 40 full size would release the slide when a magazine was inserted in the gun. The slide stop did not have to be pushed for the slide to go forward.
I haven't had a chance to try out the new PPQ. I looked at one at a store and besides the cheap sights, it seemed like a solid gun. It had a tad light, but very smooth trigger and good grip.
I have not owned or fired the other two, but the SIG is an excellent pistol for the money. Feels like my 229 except a little lighter. I've only had it for about six months and bought it used, but it's a solid piece considering it's a poly frame. I actually like it as much as I do my 229.
JHansenAK47
Member
One opinion.
I find the longer style of paddle mag release found on the current P99AS and PPQ (M1) preferable to any pushbutton that i've tried on the 1911s, steyrs, glocks, hipower, CZs, berettas...etc that i've owned and used. I also haven't found switching between pushbutton and paddle release to be any big deal as i'm familiar enough with my own pistols to be able to use the correct muscle memory without even thinking about it.
As far as the shorter paddle release found on the earlier P99s and HKs i've found that they work just fine but are more or less on the same level as a pushbutton.
YMMV
Do you care to elaborate on that statement. I find statements without backing to be questionable.
The steel aftermarket sights also have a tiny screw which when installing I used a glock front sight tool to install. That considered i'd have to reason that they are probably as durable as the plastic or steel glock front sights that use a similar setup. Honestly though it is the rear sight not the front that i'd criticize. It is held on by a small spring and plunger and moves freely in it's dovetail. So a reasonably sharp strike would be able to break the plunger arms and let your rear sight slide straight out. That said my rear sight hasn't given me any issue other than losing the spring and plunger which the fine customer service of S&W replaced for free.
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Highcaliber
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:banghead:
Most people who don't like the HK style mag release are using it wrong. It is intended to be utilized with the trigger finger NOT your thumb. This enables you to stay on target with no need to tilt the gun and "reach" with your thumb.
I saw a customer fondling an hk p30 at my LGS a few weeks ago and the customer could not reach the "paddle" style mag release with their thumb. They were very disappointed because they came to the store specifically to buy the HK, but the mag release was about to be a deal breaker. The "salesman" offered nothing but thumbs.
When I showed them the TRIGGER FINGER method...they both realized they were doing it wrong and were amazed at the efficiency of motion and target aquisition available when using the HK style mag release the CORRECT way. The customer left the store with the HK and a new paradigm on mag releases.
Trigger finger method or not, I still hated the pre-M2 PPQ style magazine release.
Placing a finger on a button an pressing it is much easier than placing a finger on a side edge of paddle then moving the finger in a direction the finger has least leverage. Too less finger on the paddle, then the finger slips. A little too much, then the finger hits the trigger guard and I can't press it down. And, the finger partly inside the trigger guard near the trigger.
At least HK paddle is placed well behind where the trigger is normally is and does not consist of part of the side of the trigger guard right next to the trigger.
Placing a finger on a button an pressing it is much easier than placing a finger on a side edge of paddle then moving the finger in a direction the finger has least leverage. Too less finger on the paddle, then the finger slips. A little too much, then the finger hits the trigger guard and I can't press it down. And, the finger partly inside the trigger guard near the trigger.
At least HK paddle is placed well behind where the trigger is normally is and does not consist of part of the side of the trigger guard right next to the trigger.
JHansenAK47
Member
A few? How many exactly are we talking; two, three?
The metal front sight is the same style on the aftermarket steel walther P99/PPQ. Some people even modify glock front sights to work in the wider walther front sight slot. The plastic sight is held by a screw that wedges the plastic open and the metal version by a hex head screw. Both work just fine.
Right where it is easier to reach. My finger is straight and off the trigger or on the trigger so transiting to the mag release where it is doesn't require me to do anything other than straighten and sweep the mag release with my trigger finger. I haven't had any issues with slipping off or going in the trigger guard.
I have no problem operating the Walther-style mag release with my either my thumb or index finger. I find it to be superior to the push-button release in several respects:
1) Using it does not require the shooter to shift his grip at all. On a 1911 or Glock, for instance, I have to "roll" the grip ever-so-slightly to fully depress the mag release. Not an issue when a quick flick of the index finger can drop a mag.
2) Completely ambidextrous.
3) Impossible to accidentally depress the mag release when holstered. This is a MASSIVE advantage over traditional designs.
So what If I need to rotate the pistol a little? I am not shooting it. It also means my thumb is not touching the button when I am shooting it.
My mag drop speed with an M&P is still faster than HK or pre-M2 PPQ.
There are ambi press button magazine release pistols too.
Big Mike
Member
I don't find the paddle releases "god awful", but for me they are not intuitive but cumbersome. I've only held several in LGS, and have not shot or trained on them though, and recall reading several years ago that they were partially engineered to accommodate right and left handed shooters, equally. I'm sure if I was dedicated to the equipment and trained hard I could accommodate. Decades of muscle memory has my right thumb doing what it needs to do without thinking too hard about it. My pistols come slightly off target anyway when completing a reload and by my overhand slide release.
Given Walther is trying to sell pistols, think the M2 version makes sense. I've dry fired the three pistols queried in the OPs post and found the Walther having the nicer of the triggers. I think they are all roughly the same in reliability and durability. The Sig will be the least expensive of the three. Factory and aftermarket support for all brands appear to be good. No bad choices....
Given Walther is trying to sell pistols, think the M2 version makes sense. I've dry fired the three pistols queried in the OPs post and found the Walther having the nicer of the triggers. I think they are all roughly the same in reliability and durability. The Sig will be the least expensive of the three. Factory and aftermarket support for all brands appear to be good. No bad choices....
searcher451
Member
Take your pick on the Walther PPQ version, M1 or M2 ... it doesn't matter, so long as you keep yourself happy. The trigger is the thing, and the trigger is terrific. But folks were right to point out that the P99 AS is still a wonderful platform, a decade after its release. If you haven't tried one of these pistols, you simply don't know what you are missing.
razorback2003
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Has Smith fixed the 9mm full size m & p accuracy and extractor issues?
steven58
Member
As a "lefty" with size "S" hands the PPQ M1 is a godsend!
First, it fits my hand perfectly (with the small backstrap installed).
Second, for my "spoiled by 1911s" self it has a decent trigger. I never liked the double action triggers of the H&Ks even though I liked their paddle mag release.
Third, over the 20 + years I've carried, I have had the experience of accidentally depressing the magazine release via contact with chair backs and seat belts/car seats etc while using quality OWB and IWB holsters. It's happened to me with a Glock 19, Steyr M9A1, various 1911s, a couple of High Powers and some S&W autos.
The only one that went 12 years without this issue is my EDC Kimber Ultra Elite because I modified it by having the mag release button shaved way down, the rim radiused and smoothed and the spring replaced with a much stiffer one. This was a deliberate trade off of reloading speed for magazine retention security.
Since I already use my index finger to activate the magazine release button on common autos the transition to the PPQ M1 was easy. In fact its easier than the button because it requires NO movement of the rest of my firing hand. Only my index finger moves. With the button a slight shift is required to eject the magazine and again to re acquire a firing grip.
Now that I have a pistol where it's virtually impossible to "bump eject" the magazine I wonder how long it will be before I stop reflexively doing mag checks on it?
First, it fits my hand perfectly (with the small backstrap installed).
Second, for my "spoiled by 1911s" self it has a decent trigger. I never liked the double action triggers of the H&Ks even though I liked their paddle mag release.
Third, over the 20 + years I've carried, I have had the experience of accidentally depressing the magazine release via contact with chair backs and seat belts/car seats etc while using quality OWB and IWB holsters. It's happened to me with a Glock 19, Steyr M9A1, various 1911s, a couple of High Powers and some S&W autos.
The only one that went 12 years without this issue is my EDC Kimber Ultra Elite because I modified it by having the mag release button shaved way down, the rim radiused and smoothed and the spring replaced with a much stiffer one. This was a deliberate trade off of reloading speed for magazine retention security.
Since I already use my index finger to activate the magazine release button on common autos the transition to the PPQ M1 was easy. In fact its easier than the button because it requires NO movement of the rest of my firing hand. Only my index finger moves. With the button a slight shift is required to eject the magazine and again to re acquire a firing grip.
Now that I have a pistol where it's virtually impossible to "bump eject" the magazine I wonder how long it will be before I stop reflexively doing mag checks on it?
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