Want a new semi-auto rifle but

[TCBPATRIOT]

I have a smith here in town that's does conversions for 40 bucks as long as you bring the parts yourself. Maybe you could look into having it done. If not an AR or AK(saiga) Id look into a maybe an older mini or have you considered a pistol caliber carbine?

 

[meanmrmustard]

+1 on that. There's no mounting a scope on a AK or an SKS. Some of the other stuff around might be different I guess.

False. Both can and have been scoped quite successfully.

 

[Sky]

Well the 300 yard thing to me screams AR. Being a hunter I actually took a pig around dusk at 327 yards; it was a double pop from a steady rest and the pig was DRT.

Now, I would not have taken the shot with my AK due to the ammo I use in it for pig popping which is 154sp; even my Eotech sighted AR that uses the same ammo I would not have taken the shot.

To me my AK is great out to 125 or 150 yards for hunting (prefer 75 to 100) if I want to hit close to the spot I am aiming for and my AK is pretty darn accurate for an AK.

The AR (again my personal experience) provides a very comfortable 200+ range weapon for pigs. Again part of the reason is ammo and optics. Now I do have different 7.62x39 ammo that is much more consistent and accurate than the 154gr SP but even so out past 200 yards and wanting to be hunting accurate then for me the AR is first choice.

Would be great if you can go to a range that rent both weapons and do your own test and maybe one of them will call your name.

 

[Girodin]

So this isn't the detailed write up I wanted to do on the various options for RDS on an AK. In fact it is very spartan. I don't have time to discuss each and compare them much. It basically just shows whats available.

There are five main ways to put a red dot sight (RDS) on an AK. There are other possibilities beyond what I will describe, but these are the common ones. Some work better with certain RDSs.

Side rail like these: You said you wanted a forward mount but I thought I'd at least mention this option

View attachment 637256

An ultimak gas tube rail: This is one of the most proven set ups. With an aimpoint micro it allows for cowitness. An ultimak is about $90. One nice thing about this it also allows you to mount a light.

View attachment 637257

View attachment 637258

MI rail with optic specific top cover. They make top covers for a variety of RDS. I like that there is a longer handguard. I don't like the short hand guards of an AK. MI offers both legnths. They offer railed and smooth with the ability to add sections of rail. THe latter is my preference.

View attachment 637259

TWS handguard. I have no experience with this handguard but I like it on paper. I like that I can shoot thumb over bore with out burning it. I like the idea of micro flip up sight on the rail matched with a TWS top cover. The big draw back is the thing is $260-300 (although an ultimak gas tube coupled with an ultimak handguard is about the same price and heavier and doesn't shield the gas tube). The other problem is it seems to be out of stock where I've seen it listed.

Another option is to just use the the TWS top cover and mount the RDS on it. I'd have to check the price but I think it is around $125. The picture below shows both products.

View attachment 637260

Another option for some RDS is this from Midwest industries. The MI mini dot mount. I have no experience with it but am think I may use it on a Mini draco SBR. It allows cowitness and doesn't ad much size or weight which is why I want it for the mini.

 

[Girodin]

adding Tech sights to the receiver to lengthen the sight radius makes for an AK (Saiga most likely) that will keep pace with chrome lined ARs.

I don't want to get to into this too much but I think it may be helpful to unpack that statement a little bit.

First are we talking mechanical accuracy or practical accuracy (i.e. what one can shoot with irons from field positions. Also what ammo are we talking about? Ammo is often a limiting factors. In terms of practical accuracy with irons and from field positions most folks are not as accurate as a saiga or an AR.

If we are talking purely mechanical accuracy it is too broad a statement to say an AK will be as accurate and a chrome lined AR. First of all, not all AKs and all ARs are made the same. There are chrome lined ARs that are still VERY accurate. John Noveske said this about his chrome lined barrels: "here is a kind of an unspoken match-grade tolerance in the custom barrel world of 2/10ths of a thousoundth concentricity, or…in uniformity of bore diameter from end to end, and I spec that out on my chrome-lined barrels."

This is part of why these barrels are very consistent and legit sub MOA guns. I have never encountered a legit and consistent sub MOA AK. I've seen groups, mostly three shot groups that are. However, these are invariably, best of the day groups, not what the gun will consistently print on demand.

Shooting from field positions with irons or a red dot make it very hard to make use of all that accuracy. Further, shooting cheapo ammo likely will not get you the best results either.

In sum, my experience has been that saigas are MUCH more accurate than most think and the gun is rarely the limiting factor in the accuracy equation. On the flip side not all ARs are the super accurate guns of internet lore. Even chrome lined guns that are very accurate probably cannot show that accuracy with most shooters in the real world. Shooting an AR with a 4 or even 2 MOA red dot sight or irons from field positions, particularly with cheap ammo most shooters (I know I'm one) cannot hold the sub MOA accuracy some of these guns are capable off.

really appreciate the info Girodin. It was nice of you to type it all out but I think I'll pass on the Saiga. I went the DIY route last time around, building from a kit and I just don't want to spend the time to do it I don't think. It sounded kind of interesting but when you mentioned a $50 tool to thread the barrel for a FH I just started thinking I would pass. I'm fairly handy, I just don't want to get into it that far and on top of it I'd need to deal with the handguards situation cause I'd like a little rail up front.

I'm not trying to push you one way or another. I'm just trying to help you make an informed decision. In that vein I think there are a few things worth mentioning.

First there are a number of railed hand guard options that will work with a Saiga without retro fitting it to also work with standard AK handguards (*edited for some reason I wrote mags before instead of handguards). In fact, a number of railed options actually require removing the handguard retainer from an AK, effectively making it like a saiga. Options that work with a saiga include. MI universal hand guard, the MI extended and SS extended, Chaos hand guards, ultimak, Surefire gun mags handguard, TWS and more.

If what you are after is a rail for the red dot, say an ultimak that is slightly different. THe stock longer saiga handguard will not work. Certain other hand guards will not work either. However some of these can be modified to work. Rather than try to list everything that will and wont work and what it takes to make them work I'll leave it at that unless there is a specific inquiry.

Now if you really want standard AK handguards, this gun is an option. It also addresses the issue of the threaded barrel. It is threaded under the big muzzle nut which you see. This gun runs about $450 last I checked, compared to $400 for a regular saiga.

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As for the VEPR suggestions other people made I'm not interested due to the proprietary mags.

7.62x39 Veprs can be made to work with standard mags. Thus if magazines are the only impediment I wouldn't let it stop you.

 

[justice06rr]

With your 300yard shooting, I would probably suggest going with the AR. You would probably struggle with iron sights past 150yards on the AK; not so much with the AR. Of course you can add optics to both, but you mentioned Irons only. the irons on an AK are not very friendly for longer distances IMO, and harder to use past 100yards. thats just my observations concerning the 2.

I like both rifles but the AR gives you better accuracy and controllability overall. For your budget of $850 there are a few good options you can go with. Maybe a BCM complete upper with a PSA complete Lower. Or if you just want a complete AR, then you can go with Smith&Wesson, Stag, RRA, Spikes, and PSA (among others).

 

[303tom]

Maybe you should consider one of these.......

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=310294494

I have two of them, one in 7.62 NATO & one in 7.5 French, I think they are the cats meow as far as AR`s go..........

 

[fireside44]

Now if you really want standard AK handguards, this gun is an option. It also addresses the issue of the threaded barrel. It is threaded under the big muzzle nut which you see. This gun runs about $450 last I checked, compared to $400 for a regular saiga.

Once again, thanks for all the good info Girodin. Should I go the AK route I will likely reference your posts again. Nice of you to take the time and post it.

Who is carrying those particular Saigas with the standard HG's and FH? I could see myself doing a bit of work putting in the standard stock if the front end was already how I wanted it. I just don't want something that is gonna take too much time to get into final form.

With your 300yard shooting, I would probably suggest going with the AR. You would probably struggle with iron sights past 150yards on the AK; not so much with the AR. Of course you can add optics to both, but you mentioned Irons only. the irons on an AK are not very friendly for longer distances IMO, and harder to use past 100yards. thats just my observations concerning the 2.

I posted 300 yards as the absolute maximum. My local range has a 200 yard max unless I drive to a high power range a couple hours away. My area has quite a bit of salt cedar coverage so much of my shooting would be sub-100 yards. I mostly threw 300 out there as the maximum I would ever attempt to shoot the rifle unless I went with an AR and could go have some fun stretching it's legs.

I also had a look at the CZ58's which are kind of interesting. Milled receivers, real nice fit and finish, about my price range. Anyone with experience there? Anyone tried Waffen Werks AKs? Just trying to get as much feedback as possible before I decide.

 

[Girodin]

They can be found here. I'm not saying this is the best deal. It often pays to shop around. However this is a place that has them. http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/ind...ategory&virtuemart_category_id=104&Itemid=762

I just don't want something that is gonna take too much time to get into final form.

The back half takes maybe 3 hours of work if you are going REALLY slow, being really careful, and consulting instructions frequently. After doing it a couple times, I would guess the last one took me 45 minutes.

The time for hand guards and other front end stuff really depends on what exactly you want to do.

I will say I think the gun I posted a pic of above would make for a good AK. You could do all of the following in an afternoon. Pistol grip conversion/ move the FCG, modify it to take standard AK mags (this requires drilling and tapping a hole and a little filing on the mag latch), cut the thin weld and remove the muzzle nut and screw on the device of your choice (options range form $10 to nearly $200), and install an Ultimak gas tube. The ulimak would give you a place to mount a RDS and anything else one might need, say a light.

This would be a solid AK that will in all likelihood outlast you and has everything one could need and at a price less than an arsenal and with, to my mind at least, a more functional configuration.

With the Waffen Works gun I'd be looking real hard at what barrel they used. I'm not real up on what they are doing today, however, it was my understanding WW guns are kit builds with US barrels. From reviews I've seen they seem to be assembled well and have a nice finish, one that is nice than Arsenal's and various factory guns. However, personally, in as much as my guns are shooters, I'm MUCH more concerned about the barrel (and other key parts) of my gun than the finish. Personally, I'd rather spend my money building a saiga or vepr to a configuration to match my needs and desires. That's just me though.

 

[fanchisimo]

Atlantic has been out of Saigas for a while. If you want to avoid doing all the extra work to the front half you're looking for a Saiga 332 (7.62x39) or the 240 (5.45x39). These two have most of the front work done minus taking the thread protector off. I have been looking for a 332 for a while and haven't had much luck. Another AK is the newer WASR 10/63 which can be had for around $500 right now at Classic Firearms. If you look around online the 10/63's have been getting better much reviews than the old WASR 10. The reviews on it has me considering trying a 10/63.

Edit: It's a Saiga 340 for the 5.45x39 with the front work done. The 240 is the model with the standard Saiga Sporter front end.

 

[Girodin]

Atlantic has been out of Saigas for a while.

I just saw they list them. You have to try and add it to your cart to be told they don't have it I guess. It's so annoying when companies cannot simply list whether items are in stock or not.

I'd check around at the usual AK places. I don't know off the top of my head what places do or don't have them. Saigas tend to be cyclic. A shipment comes in and everyone has them and then they seem to dry up and you have to wait a bit for the next batch.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Atlantic does indeed have Saigas.

 

[fanchisimo]

meanmrmustard, it's like Girodin said, they have them listed, but as soon as you try to add them to your cart, they are out of stock. I share your annoyance Girodin, ever since I started looking for an AK/Saiga to convert, I have run into several websites not accurately listing their wares. It's like seeing a big wrapped present and when you go to open it, a spring-propelled boxing glove is waiting for you. Lol. This link has a company selling 7.62 Saigas for 359 + S&H but I can't find their website.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_122/1049734_SAIGA_7_62x39__LIMITED_SUPPLY_at__359___SandH.html