Warning: Distraction In Progress

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kyew

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I watched a video on another thread with a woman making some pretty good arguments against the anti-2A camp. I was impressed until she blurted out the same "but no one said anything about the violent video game market that causes kids to commit these crimes!" drivel I've heard all over the internet ever since Sandy Hook.

My warning is, distractions such as these do our cause no good whatsoever. Not to even mention it's a moot point (if you agree with your own points on keeping your guns). Allow me to illustrate:

Anti-2A people claim that guns kill; that they're designed for nothing more than to cause bodily harm. We know this is not true. We know that guns are designed to propel a projectile at high velocity in the direction the barrel is pointing. We know that the person firing that weapon is the one using it for bodily harm (or preventing bodily harm as the case more often is).

Now, it seems, we're fully prepared to take up the same fallacious argument the anti-2A people have against guns, only we're directing it toward video games. How is this justified? Video games do not harm anyone. They do not, in and of themselves, cause any predictable transformation or degradation of the psyche in the average, "normal" person. Millions of people (not just kids) play computer/video games and they're NOT killing anyone in shooting sprees. The same as millions of people own guns who do not shoot up theaters and such.

If you want to blame someone, blame who's at fault - the parents, for being too lazy to guide their children through their formative years and allowing them to spend hours upon hours in front of the screen. You see, just as in the debate for and against guns and gun rights, it always boils down to the common denominator - people. SomeONE, not someTHING, is always at fault. In this case, the parents are (or were at the time a child formed these deviant thoughts) responsible for that child.

Myself? I don't think it's an intentional distraction, but focus is directly equal to the value of what you're fighting for. Lose focus and you're giving away the fight. Vigilance is its own reward.
 
I think the main reason why we get these mass shootings is because ninety five percent of the shooters are on prescription meds, but the media never puts that in the forefront, its always the evil gun did it, got to get rid of the guns, all they are good for is killing, BS!! Media knows the real reason for these shootings, but it does not fit in to there agenda because they are government lapdogs, there ultimate goal is to disarm all law abiding citizens.
 
This gun control stuff is going no where, because none of the proposed laws would have stopped the violence. The navy yard shooter passed background checks. He used a shotgun (Joe Biden's good ol' standby). He was completely insane, and nobody - not the cops, not his friends, or family, or anyone else - did anything to help him.

We don't have a gun violence or lack of gun control problem; we have a mental illness problem, specifically, not doing anything to identify and treat mental illness.
 
I think the main reason why we get these mass shootings is because ninety five percent of the shooters are on prescription meds, but the media never puts that in the forefront, its always the evil gun did it, got to get rid of the guns, all they are good for is killing, BS!! Media knows the real reason for these shootings, but it does not fit in to there agenda because they are government lapdogs, there ultimate goal is to disarm all law abiding citizens.
Let me ask you a question: were these people crazy because they were on medication, or on medication because they were crazy?
 
The media also doesn't state that the 6 or so people that go on "mass shootings" per year are a sample out of ~ 400 million people. I guess it goes with that saying by some guy of whom I can't remember:

"One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."
 
I agree somewhat with the woman's point of view. Their has to be a de-sensitizing factor to the human brain from repetitavely shooting and killing in a video game. The issue becomes is the player of the sound mind to keep fantasy and reality seperate. If 5 million of the latest, most popular shoot em up games are being played, you only have to have 1 mentally ill person who tips over the edge . I dont know if specificly a mass playing of violent, realistic video games is responsible for a mentally unstable person to go off on a shooting rampage, but sure seems there's is more than a coincidental association between the 2. Conversely, i dont think owning a gun is going to, of itself, spark someone to commit a mass murder. That is only the tool they use and the price we pay as a free society. Ad the post regarding the psychiatric meds taken by most mass shooters is right on . There are serious side effects associated with anti-psychotic drugs.
 
Let me ask you a question: were these people crazy because they were on medication, or on medication because they were crazy?
The meds made them crazy, you cannot solve a problem by feeding are veterans and soldiers meds, seems like when our soldiers say they are having problems then the first thing the doctors want to do is feed them pills instead of getting to the root of the problem, the government needs to put a lot of its resources into mental health care in this country.
 
Let me ask you a question: were these people crazy because they were on medication, or on medication because they were crazy?
The meds made them crazy, you cannot solve a problem by feeding are veterans and soldiers meds, seems like when our soldiers say they are having problems then the first thing the doctors want to do is feed them pills instead of getting to the root of the problem, the government needs to put a lot of its resources into mental health care in this country.
Mental health is a cultural and societal problem; that does not necessarily make it a governmental problem. Government continually proves that it does not manage anything well or cheaply. Are there no alternatives other than depending on Washington for mental health care? Call me crazy(!) but where in the Constitution are mental health services addressed?
 
G'dale Mike,

I understand your point, but that's like saying that more guns has to lead to more violence. You have to look at the data. Here is a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_controversies.

The research is not completely definitive, but it looks that most research has found no effect, while some claims a mild effect.

I think there is ample evidence that putting violent criminals in jail for long periods reduces violence. It makes me mad when non-violent offenders get longer sentences than violent offenders.

It would also be interesting to look at the research on whether institutionalizing the severely mentally ill effects rates of violent crime. If so, then we can blame both liberals (who saw it as a civil rights issue) and conservatives (who saw a way to save money) for greatly reducing this.
 
...
We don't have a gun violence or lack of gun control problem; we have a mental illness problem, specifically, not doing anything to identify and treat mental illness.

Let me ask you a question: were these people crazy because they were on medication, or on medication because they were crazy?

My worry is an individual's original mental health issue and what is done to treat it. A depressed individual goes to see the doctor about feeling sad, lonely ... or dealing with stress or ... The doctor prescribes a drug and sends them home. A few weeks later some fraction of the patients prescribed that drug have adverse side effects wanting to kill themselves or others. Then, some of them take and turn their thoughts into actions.

There is plenty of documentation that drugs like Luvox, Prozac and Paxil cause homicidal thoughts. So ... is the cure worse than the problem? Was the gun they owed (or just bought) to blame or the drug? The “easy way” for politicians to say they are doing something is to try to legislate a ban or additional restrictions on guns. Q: Who spends way more in political contributions than the NRA? A: Big Pharma.

( source http://www.businesspundit.com/10-of-the-biggest-lobbies-in-washington/ )

chuck
 
Ok ... We have a "mental inlness" problem ...

Ask yourself WHY so many of our citizens are so screwed up in the head. Could it be because we have a gaggle of glaring cultural and structural issues in our siciety? No, silly me.
 
The meds made them crazy, you cannot solve a problem by feeding are veterans and soldiers meds, seems like when our soldiers say they are having problems then the first thing the doctors want to do is feed them pills instead of getting to the root of the problem, the government needs to put a lot of its resources into mental health care in this country.
How are the meds making them crazy? Or, assuming you do not have medical training, do you have any actual scientific evidence that medication is causing its users, in general, to become crazy?

There is plenty of documentation that drugs like Luvox, Prozac and Paxil cause homicidal thoughts. So ... is the cure worse than the problem?
Then would you kindly provide some to prove your point? Be sure of it. Give me the ocular proof.

From my point of view (at a university computer, with access to research databases) the link is not well established. For example,

Abstract

Rationale
There is an ongoing discussion on the relation between risk of violent behaviour and the use of antidepressants. The claim that the use of antidepressants can cause violent behaviour would gain credibility if a positive association between the two could be established.

Objective
The objective of this study is to evaluate the relationship between homicide, suicide and homicide–suicide rates and the rates of antidepressant use by gender and age group.

Method
Nationwide data from the Netherlands on antidepressant prescriptions (ADs, SSRI and venlafaxine) and lethal violence were analysed over the 15-year period from 1994 to 2008.

Results
The findings indicated a significant negative association between lethal violence (homicide and suicide) and prescription of antidepressants in the Netherlands, indicating that in a period in which the exposure of the Dutch population to antidepressants increased, rates of lethal violence decreased.

Conclusions
These data lend no support for an important role of antidepressant use in lethal violence.

Are antidepressants safe for everyone? No. Young children and teenagers tend to suffer more severe side effects (the younger they are, the more severe the side effects) because antidepressants were designed for, and tested on, adults with fully developed brains. The effects of a drug on younger brains is less predictable. As such, it is currently not recommended that children take antidepressants (barring unusual circumstances such as severe cases of depression), but antidepressants generally work fine in adults.

There are certainly people who take antidepressants and suffer side effects. And there are certainly people who commit violent acts while using antidepressants - Eric Harris, for example, was on SSRI's. (Though Dylan Kelbold was not.) However, a causal link is difficult to establish because you also have to take into account that the medication may have failed to treat the problem, either because the dosage was too low, it was the wrong type of medication, or the user was not taking it properly - actually getting people to comply with a doctor's instructions is not terribly easy.
 
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My son has some problems from Iraq invasion and his time as a grunt with 101st. Goes to VA . The load him with meds Their be all better. I think I preferred him off the drugs. When I went I spent time in counseling and groups . We we talked out our problems. Very few were on any type of medication But been 30 years and pills are easier. No salary and no retirement bennies .

Almost all these shooters on some type of medication civ or military. Hell schools full of kids on drugs for one reason or another.

If you have a problem .We have a Pill to fix . How many times do you leave doctors office with out some type of prescription.
 
I understand your point, but that's like saying that more guns has to lead to more violence. You have to look at the data. Here is a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_controversies.

The research is not completely definitive, but it looks that most research has found no effect, while some claims a mild effect.

Somewhere in NM,
Studies that are published conclude what those funding the study wanted them to conclude or they never see the light of day. Said differently, take what studies say with a grain of salt.

I tried to look up who payed for a few the studies mentioned in your wiki'article and ran into dead ends as to their funding. Perhaps the gaming industry funded the study (speculation).

chuck
 
Ask yourself WHY so many of our citizens are so screwed up in the head. Could it be because we have a gaggle of glaring cultural and structural issues in our siciety? No, silly me.

In our society today, young children are taught that "everyone is a winner", and "there are no losers". We don't dare do a thing that might hurt their self esteem. So they are raised inside a protective bubble. And in particular, boys are raised to be more feminine and less masculine. Just as one example, in my father's day (and mine as well), you handled a bully by knocking the bully's block off (as a last resort of course). Now, children that defend themselves against a bully get suspended. The bully may, or may not be punished. The school passes "anti bullying policies" which probably won't dissuade said bully.

My sister, who is now around 30, observed that the boys in her generation are just that: boys. Adult children that don't know how to lose. Granted, not all of them are like this, there are many fine young men out there, particularly those that are serving in uniform. I was raised to work hard, give it my best, but to expect set backs and trials. Such is life. Live and learn. But then, when these adult children enter the real world and they are under equipped to deal with the inevitable conflict around them. So is it any wonder we have people that don't know how to solve problems with their wits, peacefully? And so some turn to violent acts.

I'm not condoning their actions at all. It is what it is.
 
Somewhere in NM,
Studies that are published conclude what those funding the study wanted them to conclude or they never see the light of day. Said differently, take what studies say with a grain of salt.

I tried to look up who payed for a few the studies mentioned in your wiki'article and ran into dead ends as to their funding. Perhaps the gaming industry funded the study (speculation).

chuck
If I may ask, what are the grounds for suspecting violent videogames cause violent behavior in real life?
 
There is a basic idea that advertisers would not spend millions on video information if it did not affect the behavior of ateast some of those watching it.

A reasonable correlation might be that violent videogames might also have an effect, at least on some susceptible individuals. Perhaps not on the average of a research group, but maybe on the outliers. And that's all it takes.
 
the first thing the doctors want to do is feed them pills instead of getting to the root of the problem

That is a sad reality. I went to the VA for a checkup, and the doctor told me my blood pressure was slightly elevated. I was about fifty pounds overweight and badly out of shape. He started to prescribe blood pressure meds, telling me that I only needed to take these once a day. I stopped him and asked, "Can't I lower my BP by eating better and getting more exercise?" He admitted that I could, but seemed to get a little miffed when I told him that I wasn't taking any medication for something I could control by changing my habits. It seems they've either gotten lazy, or are making some serious money from the pharmaceutical camp.
 
Quote:
> There is plenty of documentation that drugs like Luvox, Prozac and Paxil
> cause homicidal thoughts. So ... is the cure worse than the problem?

Then would you kindly provide some to prove your point? Be sure of it. Give me the ocular proof.

Solo,
The drug manufacturers don't YET have the FDA so far in their pockets that they get to omit observed side effects. Even if they use the smallest font they can find, they still have to list ALL observed side effects during testing. Start with Luvox (Generic name: fluvoxamine) and the drug that Eric Harris was on during the Columbine massacre. I seems to be a generic, so I could not go to any one manufacturer's web site as there were many (all non-US by the way) listed in the link below.

http://www.alibaba.com/manufacturers/fluvoxamine-manufacturer.html

The best I could find was drugs.com's side effects for it.

http://www.drugs.com/sfx/luvox-side-effects.html

Taken from the link above: Psychiatric side effects including cases of hypomania and mania, apathy, indifference, disinhibition (without concurrent hypomania), hallucinations, paranoid, suicidal or antisocial ideation, abnormal thinking, and panic attacks have been reported.

And Paxil:

http://www.drugs.com/sfx/paxil-side-effects.html

Taken from the link above: Two cases of behavioral syndromes including severe aggressive and suicidal impulsivity following paroxetine withdrawal have been reported. One case of withdrawal hypomania has been reported.​

I guess they could not call the aggressive behavior and hypomania as homicidal as they must not have actually killed anyone during the drug trails.

So, the side-effects seems to get glossed over in favor of giving patients drugs. The other drug that I listed (Prozac) has its own issues and the side-effects only occur in certain individuals.

chuck
 
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The meds made them crazy...

I have a friend who I have known over 25 years. His Dr. switched his meds over to an ssri type med & I don't even know the guy anymore. I mean he has become an entirely different person since switching his medication over, now he has become very quiet, when before he was always very outspoken. He no longer likes to shower now & is always dressed in unwashed smelly clothing. He was the only white guy left in a predominately hispanic neighborhood & now he has grown facial hair & actually looks much like his male neighbors do. When I have tried to get him to go back on his old meds he tells me he just can't see the point to it...
 
That is a sad reality. I went to the VA for a checkup, and the doctor told me my blood pressure was slightly elevated. I was about fifty pounds overweight and badly out of shape. He started to prescribe blood pressure meds, telling me that I only needed to take these once a day. I stopped him and asked, "Can't I lower my BP by eating better and getting more exercise?" ...

I too had a doctor that was a little too eager to prescribe Blood Pressure meds for a 140's (first number and ??? for the second) BP. By the way, don't drink caffeine anytime during the day of a BP check; BP will be elevated.

chuck

PS: Apology to moderators: sorry for getting so far off topic. I tried to delete my last message, but I could not figure out how.
 
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I'm not belittling the mental health issue at all, but it seems many of the responders here addressed only that. As far as the violent video games issue goes, I also won't argue against the fact that prolonged and repeated exposure to these games can definitely affect a human mind. Even an adult mind, not to mention a child in his/her mentally-formative years. But the problem (the same as with firearms) is not the child (because they aren't responsible for themselves at that age) nor is it the video game (because the game makers aren't responsible for how long you play them or how deeply immersed you become [how you use them]). The problem is with parents allowing this behavior in the first place.

I think many of the societal problems mentioned in comments above stem from inattentive parents. As the child grows and develops mentally, he/she becomes a bit detached from reality. That's not surprising considering the amount of time they spend in front of the gaming screen. Couple that with the content being fed into these forming minds - very realistic battlefield simulations, the driving need to conquer/destroy, the mindset that separates you from the humanity of warfare. What defense do they have? It's little better than brainwashing.

But the parents are supposed to be the buffer. Where are they? And then, when their child has taken a firearm to school and shot up the classroom they want to blame video games... because, obviously, the parents themselves can't be responsible! That would make them bad parents!

Sound familiar? Just like the anti's who want security but don't want to have to get their hands dirty protecting themselves. They want to ban guns as long as their bodyguards get to keep theirs.

I just wanted to alert people to the fact that using the same argument (against something that you dislike) that has been used against you (and something you like) is, at the very least, a distraction. At the most, it's hypocritical and unbecoming of a reasonable and sensible person.

Not to mention, the argument just doesn't carry any water. If there's just cause to ban video games, then there's equal cause to ban guns, because if video games can make people kill other people, then the same reasoning allows that guns could too.
 
steelerdude99
I too had a doctor that was a little too eager to prescribe Blood Pressure meds for a 140's (first number and ??? for the second) BP. By the way, don't drink caffeine anytime during the day of a BP check; BP will be elevated.

Ha ha! I bet that's what it was, too. I believe I had a cup of coffee in the waiting room before seeing the Dr. Eh, I just can't see being roped to a bottle of pills unless it's absolutely necessary.
 
There is a basic idea that advertisers would not spend millions on video information if it did not affect the behavior of ateast some of those watching it.

A reasonable correlation might be that violent videogames might also have an effect, at least on some susceptible individuals. Perhaps not on the average of a research group, but maybe on the outliers. And that's all it takes.
I very much agree, though I think it's slightly different in the case of video games. While I think the games are influential, they aren't (that I know of) subliminal. That would make the most affected demographic children in their adolescent to teen years.
 
With sales of Grand Theft Auto 5 reaching record sales of over a billion dollars in its first three days on the shelves, we should soon see an epidemic of mass shootings across the nation.
 
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