Warning Shots In Barfight?

[mattx109]

A while back there was a nasty barfight in Burlington.

A bouncer was attempting to move a couple of tourblemakers outside when one broke a bottle, knocked the bouncer to the ground, and began to cut and stab him.

Another patron was carrying (whether or not he was drinking while carrying is another matter entirely ). He could see what was happening, but couldn't get close enough to pull them apart and no one else was able to get the bottle-guy off the boucer either. So the carrying patron drew his pistol (a 9mm or .380, IIRC) and fired three rounds into a big, thick wooden beam over the doorway. The place cleared out and the bouncer got patched up at the ER.

My understand has always been and still is that warning shots are a no-no, save special situations like attempting to frighten a dog attacking a third party (as discussed in a previous thread), et cetera.

Assuming soberiety, what would you have done?

 

[Devonai]

I would have pushed my way past all of the gawkers and done my best to pull the attacker off of the bouncer.

I guess Burlington has a hotter nightlife than I gave it credit for!

 

[WT]

One warning shot into the ear of the attacker.

 

[Seventhsword]

Wt,

I'll second that.

 

[Old Dog]

packing ... in a bar?

Going beyond the fact that CCW in a bar is illegal in almost every state that grants CCW permits (assuming it is legal where this happened?), the concept of "warning shots" is almost universally frowned on and always prohibited when doctrine of deadly force is taught to military and law enforcement personnel ... but in a crowded establishment, it is, on the face of it, just plain stupid ... with the adrenalin pumping, who can guarantee where the bullets are going (in the dark) and the danger of ricochets or penetration of walls or ceilings are too great to ignore.

This guy was inexcusably stupid and would lose his CCW permit/CHL/CPL in most jurisdictions I know of ... Now, on the other hand, if he could convince the investigating officers and/or a grand jury that he truly believed the bouncer's life was in danger ... and could have applied his "warning shots" into center of mass rather than the ceiling ...

 

[mattx109]

Nothing illegal about carrying in a bar here.

In this situation, with two guys wrestling on the floor, one being cut up with a bottle, and a crowd of people around, I sure wouldn't want to try a COM shot.

That being said, I agree wholeheartedly that it was stupid.

 

[joab]

My understand has always been and still is that warning shots are a no-no, save special situations like attempting to frighten a dog attacking a third party (as discussed in a previous thread), et cetera.

The fights gonna be what it wants to be not what you want it to be.

ASSuming that he intentionally shot into a substantial hunk of wood, his actions were much saner tha wading or firing into a crowd.

You stated that there were 2 BGs and that others had failed to restrain the one with the bottle. Was this guy any bigger or tougher than the rest?
If not and his only other option was to mind his own business should he have done that?

His actions stopped the assault and resulted in no injuries. If you ask me a good shooting is when everybodu walks away unharmed.

 

[mattx109]

I wish I knew more specifics, but this is just something I remember from a few newspaper articles and from chatting with a few LE folks I worked with for a couple years.

As I recall, when BG #1 (with the bottle) began attacking the bouncer, BG #2 backed off and wanted no part of it. It was so crowded that the other bouncers couldn't get close enough to help, and no bystanders were able to or trying to assist.

My assumption is that the shooter shot into the wood purposefully, but no way to know for sure. I don't think they ever found out who it was.

 

[joab]

I don't think they ever found out who it was.

Smart man. Sometimes It pays to practice the other 3Ss
Shoot, Shut-Up and Skeedaddle

 

[nhhillbilly]

In VT and NH it is leagle to carry into bars. Maybe not smart but not a crime.

 

[joab]

I should add that my post assumes alot.
If the truth were know the guy was probably about half lit and pulled a Jack Burton

 

[Valkman]

In VT and NH it is leagle to carry into bars. Maybe not smart but not a crime.

Same here in NV. Good thing or I wouldn't be able to carry in all the casinos!

 

[ctdonath]

Issue 1: While warning shots are almost always a bad idea, sounds like this might have been the only option. In an undulating mass of people, there might not have been any apparent way to deliver a fitting COM shot without severe concerns about overpenetration/miss hitting someone else. If he deliberately chose an appropriate backstop and fired into it, ensuring that each round was accounted for, and each delivered only as the best choice short of a questionable COM shot (second half of Rule #4, anyone?), it may have been the only life-saving option - and apparently worked nicely.

Issue 2: Bar CCW is legal in NY. I'm sober when I arrive, sober when I leave, and responsible when I'm there. My right/need of CCW/RKBA does not magically evaporate during this scenario. Just like car keys, the issue isn't whether you have the tools while imbibing adult beverages, it's whether you use those tools at the time. In bar does not equate to out-of-control; I'm concerned when someone tries to revoke RKBA just because I set foot in a bar.

 

[Damon]

In general warning shots are a bad idea. In this instance it worked. What if you needed the rounds to fend off the bad guy or the rounds richoceted?

 

[JamisJockey]

Ewetah

Bar carry is legal in Utah. The law states that carry or possesion of a firearm is illegal while intoxicated. Some intepret that to mean one drop of alchohol, some interpret it to mean .08
With a permit, the only places off limits here are basically any area secured with metal detectors (courts, federal installations, etc)

 

[cracked butt]

Sounds like the man did alright, he probably saved the bouncer's life with no harm to anyone else. In other instances, a warning shot wouldn't have been a good idea, but in this one it got the intended results- can't fault the man for that.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Bar carry is legal in Minnesota, both under the old law and under the new, currently challenged law. (During the challenge, we apparently operate under the old law.)

Being drunk while carrying was legal under the old law, but certainly not under the new one.

(Good thing the blissninnies have gotten that new, dangerous law suspended, huh?)


---

 

[38SnubFan]

It worked and nobody hurt, but IMO a bad idea...

Here in PA to the best of my knowledge it is legal. However, I've made the personal decision that if I'm going to drink, my gun gets unloaded, locked and secured in a safe location before I walk into the bar. Also it stays that way until ALL the alcohol has cleared from my system. Personally, I like the idea of CCW/RKBA and exercise them proudly (read: ALWAYS carry when legally/regulatorily able to do so), so I don't really drink much at all anymore.

As far as I'm concerned, my gun doesn't go into a bar. Outside of that, I wouldn't fire warning shots in ANY situation, as you need to be able to account for every shot you fired in a legal proceeding, be it criminal or civil. Furthermore, ANY caliber, ANY weight, ANY style (FMJ or JHP) bullet is capable of ricochet - no matter what gun or ammunition you have or how you shoot.

In this situation, if I'm not able to get close enough to the attacker, I'd either:

(1) Try harder to get to the attacker and disarm him, whether it be by lethal or non-lethal force. If lethal force is warranted, I'm going to do my best to get the attacker away from the victim first, as firing into the attacker's COM while he's still on top of the victim may cause over-penetration and strike into the innocent victim.

(2) Simply pray that somebody makes it there that can stop this violent act before a tragedy occurs.

I know that the situation as described worked out well for both the victim and the shooter, but I think a more common sense approach would be a better idea for the future.

Just my $.02

-38

 

[sendec]

I try never to sa never, but warning shots are about as close to never a good idea in general. The odds of a bullet hitting something unacceptable are just too high.

If a situation has deteriorated to the point where guns are drawn and lives are at risk of death or serious physical harm we need to shoot something worthwhile, like the BGs.

 

[Sleuth]

Let me just add some additonal data into this situation:
1. Lots of "wood" beams are either wood or plastic foam over steel! (Found this out as a Fire Fighter).
2. Lots of wood beams have nails and other bits of steel in them.
3. Warning shots are always a bad idea - everywhere, all the time.

My opinion (worth what you paid for it) - firing shots in this situation was a bad idea, and the shooter was very lucky he did not kill some uninvolved person.

 

[The_Antibubba]

Fourth rule

One of the reasons warning shots are not recommended is because you must ALWAYS be aware of your backstop. Warning shots can go anywhere, and if angled "right", fly for miles.

In this one case, the shooter aimed at a solid target-the bullets were stopped by the beam, and the sound had the desired effect. I certainly wouldn't want to try to expand this example to other scenarios.

 

[Island Beretta]

In this case I don't think it was a bad idea..someone was being cut and stabbed with a broken bottle and so a life is at risk. You are allowed to defend a life it doesn't have to be your own although most of us would rather keep it to defending ourselves or family. (selfish? worried about the law? doubt our skills? )

A COM shot would have been enormously risky so the guy did the smarter thing.. and thank goodness it worked..

You know just reading the thread was a learning for me because so many comments was about the guy doing wrong, and most seem fixated on 'warning shots'and these comments are coming from firearm holders who I would expect to have a deeper understanding..
then what would we expect a jury of non-firearm holders to think


Heck the guy did great..he saved a life! Applaud him for it..

 

[Edward429451]

This sounds like the exception to the rule of no warning shots. It doesn't change anything, the rule's still in effect. Situational ethics are dynamic and it sounds like the guy made the proper decision and DID save a life.

Good shoot.

 

[joab]

these comments are coming from firearm holders who I would expect to have a deeper understanding..

Damn good point.
Maybe that's why the guy scooted out along with a couple hundred other possible reasons

 

[Andrew Rothman]

...I don't really drink much at all anymore.

As far as I'm concerned, my gun doesn't go into a bar.

Why, if you are sober, wouldn't you carry into a bar? Are bars somehow safer than, say, a drugstore or library?