Was PT Barnum right? Why not just use Solids for hunting?

[RugerOldArmy]

I've not done a lot of big game hunting, and a .54 roundball from a muzzloader or GameKings in .308 and .270 have worked well for me. But I'm wondering.

Has anybody ever read "Safari" by Capstick? He has a whole chapter making a case for using solids, based on practical experience, that pretty much makes sense. Less than ideal shots. The whole reverse logic of the 'bore right through' isn't good for deer, but is for larger game. His impressions on the fact that solids do a lot more damage than 'bore right through'. There are also references to Karamojo Bell: 1000+ elephants with just .256 and 7x57 using solids. 19 lions using the same moderate powered cartridges and solids, none requiring more than one shot.

He makes a pretty compelling case.


Anybody use solids for basic North American hunting? Thoughts, experiences?

 

[Grumulkin]

That gets batted around here from time to time with much passion on both sides. Maybe it's time for another round. I tend to side wth Capstick.

 

[eliphalet]

A properly expanding bullet works so well on thin skinned game no reason to change. Solids will work but are not as devastating. I killed a elk with a muzzle loader last fall so have seen both in person. Believe me expanding is better.

 

[trueblue1776]

I tried a hand loaded solid on a ~200lb hog last year, I'm a believer for the shoulder breaker.

Alas, most of my pigs weigh substantially less than 200lbs, so I only pack expanding ammo on my hunts.

 

[jmorris]

One can make a case that with modern engineering/manufacturing you can get the best of both worlds (think partition).

 

[MCgunner]

I had a Hornady 117 Interlock fail to expand and the deer went a ways and left no blood trail. Thankfully, he ran out of gas just as he reached the fence and couldn't jump it, fell dead in the road. Otherwise, I'd have lost a nice 7 pointer. No thank you for solids in normal calibers. They work fine in 50 cal and such, but they're pre-expanded. I've shot game at over 300 yards with a spitzer, that's what spitzers do. But, for a spitzer to kill, it MUST expand. They do carry a lot more energy and drop a lot less down range past 100 yards. If all your shooting is inside 100 yards, you probably don't care to own that new fangled .30-06, can stick with your .50-110. I think on an elephant, you probably need a solid to penetrate 5" of bone in the skull, kill zone on an elephant's skull being bigger than three south Texas deer. A deer, if you're shooting a .600 Nitro Express, well, you can still use the solid, but are you going to be successful with a solid in a .243? I think you're going to lose game, personally. If you want penetration on thin skinned game, and we all do, use a Barnes X and forget anything else on the market exists. No, I don't work for Barnes, but they work for me. You don't need anything else, trust me.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

+1 for what jmorris said. modern bullets like barnes triple shock, winchester xp3, etc. can give you both good expansion and good penetration.

 

[Byron Quick]

There's a difference between thin skinned animals and thick skinned animals and what is needed.

I enjoy reading Capstick but, apparently, a lot of very experienced hunters in Africa take him with a very large grain of salt.

 

[jeepmor]

There is a lot to be said for engineering in smaller calibers. It slows the bullet down and dumps the energy. In African game, that's a different matter. I don't live or hunt in Africa, and I don't trophy hunt. So expanding bullets for me.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Another side to the question:

In many U S jurisdictions, solids, i.e. non-expanding bullets, are illegal to use for hunting purposes. In the Lower 48, we don't have any really huge game animals except the occasional bison or grizzly where the penetration of a solid would be a factor.

And, as has been pointed out, modern bullet engineering has come a long, a very long, way.

And, BTW, P. T. Barnum WAS right. But he wasn't a shooter.

 

[Art Eatman]

'Scuse me, but what game animals in North America--that most folks ever hunt--weigh in at around a ton? And if wounded, are quite happy to stomp you into a bloodpuddle?

How many NA game animals are around four feet thick in the middle? Or have a body structure with bones that are bigger than any of our horses or cows?

Solids are used to break heavy bones--after penetrating seriously thick hides--and traverse maybe three to five feet of meat in the to-ing and from-ing of all that.

We use expanding bullets on our local game critters because they've proven very effective. We know from experience that GI-type full-patch .30 bullets quite often poke through like pencils and the animal runs off and is lost.

Art

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

It seems as though a bullet has be durable enough to penetrate to the vital area in the animal being taken , If you can do that and have the bullet expand to damage as much tissue is even better ! i have noticed that the guys who go after or need to defend against large bears with handguns recomend large heavy cast non-expanding bullets ! are you including cast solid lead as a solid bullet? What I don't understand is why they would prefer a cast lead bullet instead of a jacketed bullet of the same weight ??

 

[Smokey Joe]

"solid" pistol bullets

Florida Kevin--Solid hard cast lead pistol bullets, heavy ones for the caliber, are the best for penetration from a pistol round. The hard cast lead hangs together for weight for penetration, but being lead, the bullet mushes out somewhat, to make a bigger hole. Jacketed bullets tend to come apart, losing pieces, therefore weight, therefore penetration. And the jacket material is lighter than lead, making the bullet's total mass less.

You have to rememeber that the pistol bullet doesn't have nearly the velocity of a rifle bullet to give it penetration--it depends on mass. Remember the formula, mass x velocity squared = inertia. You need one or the other.

The "solids" used for hunting African-sized dangerous game with rifles are a solid copper or a copper alloy, with no hollow point. Not lead. Whole different consideration.

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

Smokey ! So the copper / copper alloy used in solids is stronger than the jacketing material ? I understand that for a given diameter and length a lead bullet will be heavier ! i am just surprized to hear that they stay together better than jacketed ! I thought that was the purpose of the jacket ? It must be that the 2 different densities of the jacketed bullet causes it to come apart .Plus it may be going faster than the pure lead . I saw some 350 grain jsp bullets advertized somewhere ! I would love to see a comparison of them and a 350 grn lead bullet ! I believe you Smokey !! i just am trying to understand the Physics of the comparison! Thanks ! Kevin

 

[Art Eatman]

F.K., big-bore solids resemble full-jacket 9mm or .45ACP bullets. No exposed lead at the tip; not hollow-point. Some are indeed solid copper; others are a thick jacket over a lead core.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Art--

big-bore solids resemble full-jacket 9mm or .45ACP bullets. No exposed lead at the tip; not hollow-point.

Thx for clearing that up. I know what I was thinking but didn't express it well.

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

Smokey ! I know understand now ! Thanks ! i just checked out those Punch bullets online ! man those things are almost too pretty to shoot !!I couldn't find the price though! i bet it's up there !

 

[H&Hhunter]

A couple of things here.

When it comes to solids bullet shape is an important factor. A military style spitzer FMJ is not a very good shape for straight and maximum deep penetration.

The preferred shape for a solid big game bullet is either a round nose or preferably a square nosed bullet. Square nosed solids have proven to give deeper straight line penetration and more massive tissue damage than any other shape of solid bullet.

However when PHC wrote that chapter the advent of super tough premium big game hunting bullets hadn't fully evolved. With the exception of elephant many hunter are not using solids on DG anymore at all but rather using super tough expanders like the Barnes TSX, Swift A-frame, North fork cup point, ETC. I 've personally witnessed a Barnes 500gr bullet out penetrate a round nosed solid on buffalo.

Much of the stuff we read about not using softs on DG is outdated due to the quality of bullets available today.

I personally still use solids when hunting buffalo I use a soft for the first shot and solid afterwards. On elephant I use nothing but solids. I like to carry a solid in my left barrel and a sift in my right. That way by simply switching triggers I've got it covered.

In thick cover in elephant country I carry two solids up the spouts.

As far as using solids in North America. The simple answer is that there are no animals that require it. However they do have a place with certain calibers and firearm types like muzzle loaders and low velocity big bores.

I'd be really leery of using 300 gr solids in a 375 or even 220 gr solids in an 06 for hunting soft skinned critters over here for fear of over penetration and wounding/ killing on the back side.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Interesting. FWIW, I've never used solids on game, but the fact that they're less likely to deflect if they hit bone was interesting. One line of solids had me question their use:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/banded-solids/

Note they have solids for .224, .243/6mm, .257, .264/6.5mm, .277/.270, and 7mm.

I've no complaint with Partitions. I have a chance to Elk hunt, and considered the idea of .270 Win pushing solids fast might be appropriate for either less optimal than broadside shot, or a shot at say 75 yards where gamekings shed some weight.

Thanks for the opinions and feedback.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Ruger,

CAREFUL the solids in the calibers you mention are banded spitzers not banded solids which have a blunt nose and are intended for hunting.

The solid spitzers are a target bullet.

Not only that but they are only produced in very light for caliber weights.

If you want deep penetration in a decent weight in a hunting bullet get a good expanding soft point or hollow point.

Look at Barnes TSX, Swift A-Frame, Hornandy interbond, North Fork, Nosler PT to name a few.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

H&H: Thanks for pointing out the difference between the picture an the listing. I was expecting flat points, as pictured, but wanted something a bit heavier. I ordered 150 and 160 Gr Nosler partitions. Whichever shoots better over IMR4831 or RL22 should do.

Musta read too many Karamojo Bell stories