We Need A New, More Relevant Chart. Anybody want to give it a shot?

[rskent]

I’m sure pretty much everyone has seen “The Right-handed shooter impact chart”. And if you are shooting a 1911 slow fire at a conventional pistol match it is probably great. I don’t really know, but as much use as this thing gets it must be correct. It just popped up in yet another thread on THR. Although I can see some relevance to shooting a polly striker gun (or any other gun) two handed or even one handed, this chart seems to miss the mark. I think we need a new, updated “chart” that is more relevant and useful for a person that is not shooting bullseye.

Problem is, I’m not anywhere good enough with a pistol to even try. But I’m sure within the knowledge base of the High Road there is enough knowledge, talent, and experience to come up with something better than what there is now. There are a lot of good shooters here. Please share some of your knowledge with us less talented shooters. Anybody want to give it a shot?

 

[JohnKSa]

As you say, that chart is mostly focused on one-handed bullseye technique.

Really, that chart, and charts of that general type, are aimed at accomplished shooters who are having relatively minor problems making tiny groups at long distance. They've allowed bad habits to creep in and cause problems and the charts might help them sort it out.

For most shooters, it is very simple and no chart is required. They are trying, and failing, to make relatively mediocre-sized groups at close ranges using a 2-hand hold. e.g. Struggling to make 2" or smaller groups at 10 yards, slowfire, with a full-sized pistol of decent quality. It can be a relatively minor issue such as 3" groups low left on a 10 yard target when the gun is capable of one-hole groups centered on the bullseye, or something as major as barely keeping all the shots on a life-sized silhouette target at that distance.

The problem, regardless of where the bullets are hitting the target is flinching/anticipation/poor trigger technique.

 

[WVsig]

This is Louis Awerbuck's target and it is much improved over the one posted above. In the end these targets are not that useful vs proper instruction. In the end to shoot accurately you need to be able to pull the trigger without moving the gun. Only once you can do this then can you work on aiming and accuracy.

Rob Leatham explains it better than I can.

 

[forrest r]

Those charts can be useful but the firearm needs to be setup to use them. Doesn't matter what type of pistol/revolver your using. It all starts with an accurate load & the distance it will be used at.

If I was to op I'd start @ 7yds

Put up a 1" round dot (black/red/orange/something you can see with your sights) on a piece of blank white paper. Use a bench/rest/whatever it takes to be able to shoot accurately. The smaller the groups the better. Once you've found an accurate load you need you move your sights to the poa of the load. You want a 6 o-clock hold on the dot/target @ 7yds. Then it's simply a matter of putting the same 1" dot in the center of one of the charts and start practicing @ 7yds. When you can chew the 1" dot out of the chart @ 7yds you'll have the basics of pistol/revolver shooting.

1 of the worst things you can do when trying to learn how to shoot a pistol/revolver is to have a load that way out from the poa of the firearm. Those charts only work in your load is abled to be centered in that chart.

 

[WVsig]

Those charts can be useful but the firearm needs to be setup to use them. Doesn't matter what type of pistol/revolver your using. It all starts with an accurate load & the distance it will be used at.

If I was to op I'd start @ 7yds

Put up a 1" round dot (black/red/orange/something you can see with your sights) on a piece of blank white paper. Use a bench/rest/whatever it takes to be able to shoot accurately. The smaller the groups the better. Once you've found an accurate load you need you move your sights to the poa of the load. You want a 6 o-clock hold on the dot/target @ 7yds. Then it's simply a matter of putting the same 1" dot in the center of one of the charts and start practicing @ 7yds. When you can chew the 1" dot out of the chart @ 7yds you'll have the basics of pistol/revolver shooting.

1 of the worst things you can do when trying to learn how to shoot a pistol/revolver is to have a load that way out from the poa of the firearm. Those charts only work in your load is abled to be centered in that chart.

Aiming is USELESS until you can hold the pistol and pull the trigger without moving the gun. If you line up the dot on the target but everytime you pull the trigger you yank the gun 4" off the target what good did lining up the dot to the target do for you. It is all about trigger control and not influencing the gun. Once you can do that then you can work on aiming. Working on aiming, sight alignment etc... before having solid trigger control is putting the cart before the horse.

Also if you are trying to learn to shoot a gun off hand using a rest is useless. All the grip, trigger control and muscle memory you need to develop to be a good off hand shooter are taking out of the equation. Most of what you do off a pistol rest does not translate to offhand shooting IMHO.

I agree with needing a reasonably accurate load but at short distances like 7 yards even bottom of the barrel steel cased ammo will yield POA groups.

 

[Old Dog]

Here's John "Shrek" McPhee's take on the pie chart:

and here's HIS version:

I've started agreeing with a lot of what he's saying. I think these videos are worth watching, whether or not you agree with McPhee's opinions. He's a pretty experienced shooter.

 

[rskent]

For most shooters, it is very simple and no chart is required.

I don’t disagree, and yet we see “the chart” over and over. I just thought there might be something better.

They are trying, and failing, to make relatively mediocre-sized groups at close ranges using a 2-hand hold. e.g. Struggling to make 2" or smaller groups at 10 yards, slowfire, with a full-sized pistol of decent quality.

I’m not going to shoot groups that good, ever. I’m happy with a baseball sized group. It’s the outlier’s that bug me. The clear screwups.

The problem, regardless of where the bullets are hitting the target is flinching/anticipation/poor trigger technique.

Ok, I think most people understand flinching and anticipating. But how would you explain poor trigger technique?

 

[JohnKSa]

In a nutshell, poor trigger technique is moving the gun when you pull the trigger.

It is differentiated from flinching in that flinching/anticipating is an involuntary "pre-reaction" to the noise and recoil of the discharge while poor trigger technique will move the gun around during the trigger pull/shot break even if there's no flinching/anticipation.

Poor trigger technique can be masked somewhat in a gun with a very light, crisp trigger and/or when shooting slowly. When the trigger isn't ideal and/or the shooter tries to increase the speed, it will cause the groups to open up more than they should otherwise.

 

[rskent]

This is Louis Awerbuck's target and it is much improved over the one posted above.

Mr. Awerbuck’s target is interesting, and it does seem to be an improvement. But it’s still very confusing to me. There has to be something better. Or maybe not

Aiming is USELESS until you can hold the pistol and pull the trigger without moving the gun.

Quoting The Great One. While very true, is not answering the question.

 

[rskent]

Here's John "Shrek" McPhee's take on the pie chart:

In the first video he seems to say that the chart sucks. I agree, but yet it keeps popping up.

The second video is pretty interesting. His ideas about indexing seem correct but need a lot more explanation to be useful. At least for me.

 

[rskent]

In a nutshell, poor trigger technique is moving the gun when you pull the trigger.

And that’s it (in a nutshell). If your trigger technique is poor, it’s pretty obvious. The question that needs to be answered is, what is moving the gun? And more importantly, how to stop doing it?

 

[rskent]

OK, back to “The Chart”.

Please if you are thinking of posting “The Chart” because you think it might help someone. Please stop and ask yourself the question, is this really helping?

 

[JohnKSa]

If your trigger technique is poor, it’s pretty obvious.

If only that were true. I very often see people who have shot for many years and have lots of problems with their trigger technique but have never figured it out and/or have never put in the work to develop good technique.

In fact, I see lots of pistol shooters who never get their flinch/anticipation under control enough to make working on trigger technique worthwhile.

I know that it took me many years to finally get to where my trigger technique wasn't a significant hindrance to my shooting performance. I still have to practice a good deal to maintain decent technique.

The question that needs to be answered is, what is moving the gun? And more importantly, how to stop doing it?

What is moving the gun is:

1. The trigger is not being moved pressed straight back into the gun by the trigger finger. That can move the gun up, down, or to either side, but most commonly it will move it down and to the shooter's weak side.
2. The trigger finger is not moving independently and the other fingers, thumb, or hand are squeezing the gun. That can move the gun up, down, or to either side, but most commonly it will move it to the shooter's weak side and down--or maybe to the shooter's strong side and down if the thumb is squeezing along with the trigger finger.

The way to stop it is with a lot of dryfire practice while carefully watching the sights to see how the gun is moving. This is easiest to do with a long trigger that has a lot of pull weight, and/or a lot of over-travel. Those things will exaggerate the errors due to poor trigger technique.

Then experiment with trigger finger placement and movement to see how the sight movement is affected. Also, practice moving the trigger finger without moving anything while the rest of the hand is completely relaxed.

The shooter can sometimes detect the gun movement and the normal reaction is to try to compensate by taking a stronger grip. This leads to fatigue, tension and shaking, an increased likelihood of moving the rest of the fingers/hand during the trigger squeeze, and even increased anticipation/flinching. It actually makes things worse.

When a person has developed decent trigger technique, they should be able to dryfire a gun that has a long, heavy double-action trigger pull, even one with overtravel, while holding the gun in a one-handed firm but not crush grip--without moving the sights appreciably. The sights will stay still all through the trigger pull and trigger release, without having to baby the trigger slowly back and without having to release it slowly.

 

[kidneyboy]

The new updated chart shouldn't have any words in it.


" The trigger is not being moved straight back into the gun by the trigger finger."
This statement has always fascinated me. What part of a trigger moves in any direction except straight back or straight forward? Leaving out the explanation of what this convoluted statement is actually referring to makes it useless.
Cycling has a similar statement - " you aren't pedaling in circles". Pedals only go in circles.....

 

[WVsig]

Mr. Awerbuck’s target is interesting, and it does seem to be an improvement. But it’s still very confusing to me. There has to be something better. Or maybe not


Quoting The Great One. While very true, is not answering the question.

Here is a link to Leatham talking about trigger control and aiming.



Sorry but it is answering the question. The answer to your original question is that the targets are about as useless as aiming until you have mastered a reasonable level of trigger control. If you are not consistent in how you are interacting with the trigger than the target does not help. The target does not help if you do not understand the techniques that go into having good trigger control.

One thing I agree with is that "chart" needs to die. I have said it here and on other forums 1000 times. It is useless for 2 handed modern combat shooting. It needs to be forgotten and only people who do not understand how to shoot post it. IMHO

 

[ATLDave]

Ben Stoeger JUST (as in last week) came out with a book diagnosing patterns on targets and target arrays. I’m just starting to read it now.

In the meantime, about 90% of non-expert shooters really only need one area of the chart labeled - low and left. And the shots end up there because of pre-ignition push - an anticipatory flinch, usually coincident with a blink of the eyes.

 

[WVsig]

I don’t disagree, and yet we see “the chart” over and over. I just thought there might be something better.



I’m not going to shoot groups that good, ever. I’m happy with a baseball sized group. It’s the outlier’s that bug me. The clear screwups.

What you are describing is not going to be helped by a target. You need to have an experienced shooter or better yet a good trainer watch you shoot. I almost can guarantee that you do not have a consistent repeatable grip. I am willing to bet your off hand is not doing enough of the work. That your trigger press is inconsistent and the variation in that trigger pull is influencing the gun. If you can't shoot a 2" slow fire group from a duty sized gun at 10 yards I am going to guess there are multiple negative factors influencing the rounds on the target.

I would ask are the screw ups consistent? If they aren't a target is not going to help you. You need someone else to see exactly what you are doing and then help you train in a way to remove that flaw. If could go back and start all over again I would have bought fewer guns and taken more classes earlier in my shooting life. I would not have had to break nearly as many bad habits and would have had better muscle memory from the beginning. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. If you practice a flawed technique you might over come it but it will limit you at some point in your development. You are only as good as the foundation you are building upon. The sad thing is that people don't want to or cannot put in the time, money and effort to learn to shoot well. Instead of paying a trainer to help them develop they want a free target from the Internet to teach them to be better shooters. Get some training and work on fundamental skills development and you will see improvement vs posting on the Internet. LOL

 

[WVsig]

Ben Stoeger JUST (as in last week) came out with a book diagnosing patterns on targets and target arrays. I’m just starting to read it now.

In the meantime, about 90% of non-expert shooters really only need one area of the chart labeled - low and left. And the shots end up there because of pre-ignition push - an anticipatory flinch, usually coincident with a blink of the eyes.

Ben Stoegers book will help a seasoned shooter tweak their technique to get better results but as you stated it is not really useful for shooters at lower levels. You need a reasonably high base line to get much out of his new book Breakthrough Marksmanship IMHO.

 

[tarosean]

The question that needs to be answered is, what is moving the gun? And more importantly, how to stop doing it?

You cannot stop the natural sway or arc of the pistol at that everyone experiences when aiming.

 

[rskent]

You cannot stop the natural sway or arc of the pistol at that everyone experiences when aiming.

The question relates to movement as a result of pulling the trigger.

Kind of moot anyway. We are way removed from “the chart”.

 

[JohnKSa]

" The trigger is not being moved straight back into the gun by the trigger finger."
This statement has always fascinated me. What part of a trigger moves in any direction except straight back or straight forward? Leaving out the explanation of what this convoluted statement is actually referring to makes it useless.

I should have said, the trigger is not being pressed back straight into the gun by the trigger finger. (I'll edit my post to reflect the change.) In other words, instead of applying pressure only straight back into the gun, the trigger finger is pushing to one side or pulling to the other slide, or pushing downward, or pulling upwards at the same time as pressure is being applied back into the gun. This moves the gun in the direction that the additional force is being applied, particularly if the trigger is heavy, and/or has overtravel.

You cannot stop the natural sway or arc of the pistol at that everyone experiences when aiming.

Correct, but one can, and should, strive to keep from moving the gun around as a result of the trigger pull. Trigger technique improvements can't stop the normal "wobble" humans have when holding a firearm, but it can reduce how much the gun is moved off target in the process of pulling the trigger.

 

[rskent]

It’s clear to me that we are not going to come up with a better “chart”. Thanks to all for the input.

Have a great day