weapon reliability...

[EmGeeGeorge]

I noticed alot of threads, especially ccw ones talk about issue of reliability...

I carry all sorts of stuff...

sometimes a .38spl colt agent, or a p-64 makarov...

my naa mini mag, an old colt .25auto, glock 26, bul-mak, and others... sometimes in combo, sometimes alone...

I've seen a number of cases where police officers get into shootouts and have jams or malfunctions with their primary weapon... saw one on a cop show the other day where the cop and his k-9 partner( a non attack, drug dog) were wrestling with a drug dealer; the drug dealer got his sidearm away from him, points to shoot and nothing... the auto got fouled up when in the course of the struggle the muzzle went into the dirt and jammed the slide back a few centimeters... the cop gets his bug out and proceeds to shoot at the bad guy, now off screen from the car-cam...

most gunfights happen (for cops at least) within 3 yds...

I'm thinking about going into LE when I finish my Naval service, and I think if I could I'd carry a S&W .357, one of the models with 7 or 8 shots, with a small auto as a bug... why?

I have never had a misfire with a revolver- maybe a few light strikes from light d-a springs and hard primers, but the next round always worked. I've worked on glocks with weak or too strong extractor springs, 1911's with the same or other issues, and other auto's that seem beset by problems... Polymer frames especially seem to be like new model volkswagens; hit or miss. Either they work flawlessly or they continually breakdown and need corrective maint.

So what is the happy medium, what is the never-fail solution?

I'll continue to carry my usual suspects, and light a few candles around the Virgin Mary statues my mother-in-law has placed all over the house._________________ t

I'll keep a roll of quarters in my pocket in any case though.

 

[1 old 0311]

If you get away from 'gun chat rooms' and ask serious gun people most will tell you that the gun they keep in a nightstand is a wheel gun. Is the saftey on? Is the safety off? Is the mag loaded? Is the mag empty? Is the chamber loaded? Is the chamber empty?


Kevin

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

true enough.

 

[WT]

"what is the never fail solution?" - there ain't any.

Revolvers fail to go bang. Play around with them long enough and you will see it.

When revolvers revert to their silent mode, they do make nice clubs.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Serious gun people? I know quite a few people who fall into that category and happen to keep autos for both carry and HD. I say 'happen to' because wheel vs. auto is not a barometer for how 'anti-tactical' and down-to-earth someone might be. I've had plenty of autos with thousands of rounds and not a single jam, hence they are given the trust of my protection.

That said, you sound like a 'six for sure' kind of guy, Matthew g. George. If they authorize it, I'd say that a 7 or 8 shot revolver would make a great duty weapon. But we can't think that Murphy won't hit just because it's a wheelgun. Things can and do go wrong there, too. I'd say you are making the odds a bit better for yourself, however.

Find something you're comfortable with. Put a bagillionty rounds through it. If it works, you'll naturally trust it. If it doesn't, try again. Handguns are still complex pieces of machinery, so stuff happens. That's why we shoot them often and regularly check and maintain them.

Hope you find something that works well for you. Take care-

 

[fastbolt]

Serious People?

Well, that can vary depending on who's defining whom ...

Only speaking for myself, that means considering a defensive handgun suitable for a chosen task, or at least a range of potential circumstances, and then not only maintaining my skills and abilities, but maintaining the handgun in its optimal operating condition.

Some folks seem to like to fall back on excuses and rationalizations for allowing 'slippage' in the maintenance of either their skills or their firearms ... or both.

When you add the human operating factor to any handgun, then things can occur which are potentionally problematic. Change the environmental conditions and it can get really interesting.

I've seen folks limp wrist a pistol, or simply grasp it improperly and cause a malfunction, and then I've seen other folks short-stroke a revolver's DA trigger so the cylinder skipped or bound, under even the minimal stress of a controlled range ...

It's interesting, and sometimes a bit amusing, to listen or read about the folks that like to cite the perfect functioning of their favorite handgun after being subjected to incredibly abusive 'torture' tests ... and then watch someone who carries just such a handgun unintentionally drop either it, or even just the magazine, in the sand at our open range ... and watch the immediately resulting functioning problems occur until the handgun is taken apart and cleaned/lubricated.

There are advantages/disadvantages to both revolvers and semiauto pistols when used as defensive weapons.

Making a properly informed decision for your anticipated needs is just the beginning ...

 

[Double Maduro]

If you get away from 'gun chat rooms' and ask serious gun people most will tell you that the gun they keep in a nightstand is a wheel gun. Is the saftey on? Is the safety off? Is the mag loaded? Is the mag empty? Is the chamber loaded? Is the chamber empty? Kevin

Kevin, all of the questions you use to justify using a revo over a semi auto apply to the revo as well. Granted there are not many revo's with safeties but there are semi's without them.

The safety on safety off question is a non issue. If you always carry your weapon in the same condition you will know if the safety is on or off.

Is the mag loaded? Again a non issue if you always have your weapon in the same condition. By the way, is the cylinder of your revo loaded. And if you shoot the cylinder dry do you know which way it turns in case you only have time to load one to stop the bg?

In the time it takes you to load that one round, I can load 7.

The debate over which is better will go on and on. The answer is;

Carry and use what you shoot best, in the largest caliber you shoot good and can conceal.

Now I have several revo's and several semi's, when it gets right down to which one I trust with my life, for the last couple of years it has been my Ruger P90. This .45 has never failed and I am more accurate with it than I am with any of my revo's.

Oh, and for a home defense gun I prefer 12 ga.

DM

 

[Tomcat1066]

A big +1

Tom

 

[Universal]

My first duty weapon was a revolver and I liked very much. When I had to move to a semi-auto I was not completely comfortable at first. My main carry and home defense guns are revolvers but anyone would be very hardpressed to find a law enforcement job where you could still carry a revolver as your sidearm.

 

[Double Maduro]

I have never had a misfire with a revolver- maybe a few light strikes from light d-a springs and hard primers,

Matt,

Just what would you call this, if not a misfire?

A fire arm, being a mechanical device, is subject to failure. If you shoot it long enough sooner or later it will fail.

Carry what you can shoot good and have confidence in. The only person who's opinion counts is yours.

DM

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

Just as a point of interest, my Grandpa George carried a Colt PP in 38 spl when he was a Kenmore Patrolman (a suburb within Buffalo, NY) and later got a 1911 .45 as a BUG from the dept...

 

[fastbolt]

Any firearm, being a mechanical device, can eventually be subject to parts wear and failure ...

The Ruger P-90 is normally a robust and reliable .45 ACP pistol, but I've replaced several parts in mine over the years. Granted, it's an early production KP-90D which has seen a reasonable amount of use since I bought it NIB.

If some parts didn't experience wear & tear from normal use, or occasional failure/breakage, they wouldn't need to make more parts than actually needed to produce individual handguns, nor would the manufacturers be likely to support the certified armorer's training for L/E, military & security users, now, would they? Not to mention gunsmiths and factory repair technicians ...

Confidence is fine, as long as it's not misplaced.

I personally favor both revolvers (DA, DAO & SA) and various designs of semiauto pistols, BTW ...

I suspect it's fair to say that there's a lot of familiarization, training and skills maintenance/practice involved in using & maintaining different designs and platforms, however ...

 

[carolinaman]

Hi there,

When it comes to reliability, there is no pat answer or solution.

My personal choice in carry handguns is going to vary vastly from another's experience and choices. I carry both wheel and semi-auto handguns. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Carry what you shoot the best and adopt a policy of cleaning and maintaining the firearm like your life depends upon it. Learn everything about the firearm you choose and learn to replace and maintain every part yourself.

In many cases, the weapon's reliability is the operator itself.

Chris

 

[The Drew]

This is another reason I enjoy shooting IDPA... Because I have had a few auto's that under normal range conditions were 100% reliable yet when in the heat of competition, and the speed involved between shots, they proved NOT 100%. This also makes one think about what would happen should a jam happen during a self defense encounter, and it brings up the point of learning your weapon and clearing problems quickly...

I have seen several experienced shooters who experienced a failure, cleared it and kept shooting like nothing happened (with amazing speed to boot) and others who stop and stand there with a dumb look on their face waiting for help.

I think I'm gonna strive to become one of the guys who can clear a jam faster than most can realize they have a problem...

 

[cslinger]

I tend to agree that for close range self defense use a revolver is a better option for a civillian. I do not necessarily agree it is a bullet proof option. They all break and when a revolver goes down it is usually more severe then a Semi Auto malfunction.

Pick a platform you are comfortable with, buy from a reliable, well known manufacturer, test it out and train, train, train. Carry a BUG if you are employeed in a field that requires you to put yourself in harms way. Really as far as pros and cons both revos and autos have them. Figure out which pros you like the best and which cons you think are the least of an issue for you.

I carry a revolver 90% of the time as my CCW but would trust my life to 99% of the Semi-Autos I own as well.

 

[1911Tuner]

Reliability

Scanning over this one, it's odd that nobody mentions maintaining the carry gun with anal retentive fervor. Clean goes a long way to insuring reliability, no matter what platform you choose.

Carry guns gather dust and lint like they have a charge of static electricity.
Revolvers are particularly sensitive to that sort of thing. Autopistols that
haven't been accurized to the point of absurd are a less so...but still vulnerable. I can't remember how many malfunctions that I've cured by simply breaking the gun down and cleaning it.

Weekly wipe-down and inspection, along with a drop of oil in the right places
is good insurance. Regular function checks, likewise.

Test the gun by firing it 250-300 rounds with the intended carry ammo. if you carry an autopistol, test it with the magazines that are designated for carry, and keep everything clean...magazines too. There ain't any guarantees
of dead reliability with any machine, but you can stack the odds heavily in your favor with just a little care and attention to detail.

 

[cslinger]

it's odd that nobody mentions maintaining the carry gun with anal retentive fervor.

Good point. I didn't think to mention this because it is just second nature to me. My firearms are cleaned after every shooting outing and wiped down after every day of carry.

Very good point.

 

[P0832177]

Just remember the middle word in "Life", IF!

Stuff does happen! And, you have to have faith in the chosen platform!

 

[1911Tuner]

Clean

Good point. I didn't think to mention this because it is just second nature to me. My firearms are cleaned after every shooting outing and wiped down after every day of carry.

Very good point.

Excellent! I normally do a wipe-down and inspection once a week, along with
lint removal and function tests. You'd be surprised at the number of people who neglect their portable rescue squad for years on end though. A revolver in a nightstand I can see...but not a gun that's carried daily.

One guy brought a nice old LW Commander to me not long ago. The guy had bought the gun new...in 1969. Said he decided to shoot the gun a little, but it wouldn't cock. I tired it and, sure enough...it wouldn't. I tore it down and found the problem. it was so caked up with over 3 decades of lint and crud, that the sear couldn't reset into the hammer hooks. The grip safety would barely move, and the trigger felt like it was moving through wheel bearing grease. I asked him when was the last rime he shot it...and he replied:

"It ain't never been shot. I just been a-carryin' it. Why?

*sigh*

I cleaned the gun and it worked fine. Tried to buy it...No dice.

 

[fastbolt]

Scanning over this one, it's odd that nobody mentions maintaining the carry gun with anal retentive fervor.

"... but maintaining the handgun in its optimal operating condition."


Okay, so I didn't use the words anal retentive fervor ...

I also thought it unnecessary to belabor the point that I consider it one of the signs of a 'serious' person when they pay close attention to the condition and maintenance of their firearms.

Naturally, and unfortunately, this seemingly eliminates a lot of cops and lawfully armed civilians. Percentage-wise, I've seen even more ill-maintained handguns arrive for CCW classes as I ever have on the L/E qualification ranges. I've heard more than one CCW renewal class attendee even admit that they haven't practiced with, or cleaned, their handguns since the previous CCW class & qualification, too.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Fastbolt...I am duly spanked. Didn't see it. I shall amend that statement to:

Noticed that only one mentioned..."

 

[fastbolt]

Thanks pardner ...

Although, I'd be willing to bet that most all of us doing some posting thought about it ...

 

[Borachon]

But we can't think that Murphy won't hit just because it's a wheelgun.

A bragging nephew brought me his Colt Chiefs Special one day and berated me for being a foolish fellow for relying on Colt 1911s. Asking me why I would rely on an automatic when a revolver would never fail.

We went to the range to test out his new firearm (used, actually). He fired twice and then the gun went "click, click". He'd broken the little bead off the tip of the firing pin. Guy at the pawnshop said he'd seen that several times before.

When we got back in the car, I'm afraid I spoke with a bit more relish than I should have when I told him, "That's why."

 

[Old Dog]

I guess this is what we've come to in the modern firearms era, the focus on the tools, not the training ... Everyone is looking for the "most reliable" or "least problematic" or "best functioning" ... finally we arrive at one manufacturer claiming "Perfection."

When I was coming up in the gun world and learning my pistolcraft from a very smart Marine gunnery sergeant, he never told me, "Brand X is the most reliable handgun" or "The most reliable handgun is the proven revolver" -- rather, what we were taught was "One day, your handgun will malfunction. This is what you do." We were taught to expect malfunctions (even though we were also taught anal-retentive pistol maintenance) ...

The pistol, of course, was the 1911. The bottom line is using this handgun -- or any other handgun -- for its intended purpose was that, in the event of a malfunction, one knew what action to take to clear the jam and go on with the fight. Since the training was consistent, and the handgun was trained with as a tool, one was not likely to encounter a problem with one's handgun and exclaim, "Oh no, this gun is not supposed to do this!" Of course, if it was a terminal malfunction (the gun wasn't going to be returned to action without fixing something that was broken), all bets were off ...

 

[BullfrogKen]

When I was coming up in the gun world and learning my pistolcraft from a very smart Marine gunnery sergeant, he never told me, "Brand X is the most reliable handgun" or "The most reliable handgun is the proven revolver" -- rather, what we were taught was "One day, your handgun will malfunction. This is what you do."

.... in the event of a malfunction, one knew what action to take to clear the jam and go on with the fight....

Very good observation. Ammo isn't perfect either. Sometimes even the best, premium, mostest perfectist, whatever, ammo can fail to ignite. And if you ever managed to get the rim of a case to slip under the star of the ejector of a revolver, you know it is a BITCH to get it out under pressure.

Plan for things to fail. Working at the NTI this summer, I was having a conversation with our Director, Skip and Tom Givens of Rangemaster in Memphis. I asked them how many folks they knew who carried a revolver. Tom said, "Well, I know a few. I can tell you (name witheld) carries revolvers. One isn't enough." At our monthly study group we practice DTI dance drills regularly - inducing a malfunction with an orange dummy round intentionally loaded somewhere in your magazine - so that when it happens, you recognize the problem immediately and perform an immediate action drill to the gun to get it back in the fight. Or, as Tom's comment might suggest, get the other gun into the fight.

I remember a couple years back at my stage on the NTI I watched a Glock go down big time. Bang, bang, click . . . tap, rack, click . . . mag change . . . rack, click . . . OK. Took a close look. First bad round had somehow gotten the bullet separated from the brass, and each subsequent tap/ rack forced that bullet a little more into the chamber . . . lucky for him that Glock didn't go off out of battery. Used a kubaton to get it out and continued. And he was using good, new carry ammo, too; not junk or reloads.

I've been carrying a 3 1/2" fixed blade for years . . . But the things I've seen happen at the NTI and monthly study groups have persuaded me to carry another gun. I've watched too many good guns go down at the most inopportune of times.