Weapon Retention Tactics and Training

[luzyfuerza]

I need more training and experience with weapon retention tactics. I have some, but it wasn't extensive. And its been a while, so I need a refresher.

Because weapon retention is a martial art, these techniques can only be learned in-person, on the mat. I have partners. What I'm looking for is techniques that my partners and I can practice together.

First question: Are these videos from Officer.com Youtube channel at all useful?

In-Holster Weapon Retention: Defensive Tactics

instructor Richard Nance describes a simple but effective technique for keeping your weapon in its holster.

youtu.be

In-Hand Handgun Retention: Defensive Tactics

Instructor Richard Nance demonstrates a clean technique for maintaining possession of your handgun.

youtu.be

Grounded Handgun Retention: Defensive Tactics

Richard Nance demonstrates a technique for retaining your weapon in holster during a grounded fighting situation.

youtu.be

In-Hand Gun Retention Ground: Defensive Tactics

Instructor Richard Nance discusses how to keep control of your drawn weapon while ground fighting.

youtu.be

Second question: Is there other on-line or in-person training can you recommend?


I'm interested in responses from those who have attended, presented, or developed weapons retention training programs. And who may have had occasion to use these techniques.

 

[Zerodefect]

Close Quarters Personal Control - TDI Ohio

Our CQPC curriculum has been taught in the Defensive Tactics curriculum at the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy. Join the thousands of Law Enforcement, military and civilian students utilizing this devastating personal defense system. The basic gross motor skills used in TDI’s Close Quarters...

www.tdiohio.com

This is a gun school with multiple HtH and CQB oriented classes.

 

[shafter]

There's alot of junk out there these days. Realistically weapon retention isn't going to be neat and pretty with one person reaching across the gap to take your gun.

Its a sucker punch or a bear hug from behind that takes you to the ground that triggers the retention aspect. I firmly believe that a blade is the best weapon retention tool there is. It's nearly impossible to take a gun off someone who has a blade in the other hand but that's a discussion in itself with many rabbit holes and much garbage information.

 

[jmorris]

I don't have any training to recommend but I have a Safariland Level IV retention holster that I feel very comfortable with not loosing the firearm, unless the holster went with it....if that kind of stuff keeps you awake at night, they are the right stuff to be looking at.

 

[scaatylobo]

I need more training and experience with weapon retention tactics. I have some, but it wasn't extensive. And its been a while, so I need a refresher.

Because weapon retention is a martial art, these techniques can only be learned in-person, on the mat. I have partners. What I'm looking for is techniques that my partners and I can practice together.

First question: Are these videos from Officer.com's Youtube channel at all useful?

In-Holster Weapon Retention: Defensive Tactics

instructor Richard Nance describes a simple but effective technique for keeping your weapon in its holster.

youtu.be

In-Hand Handgun Retention: Defensive Tactics

Instructor Richard Nance demonstrates a clean technique for maintaining possession of your handgun.

youtu.be

Grounded Handgun Retention: Defensive Tactics

Richard Nance demonstrates a technique for retaining your weapon in holster during a grounded fighting situation.

youtu.be

In-Hand Gun Retention Ground: Defensive Tactics

Instructor Richard Nance discusses how to keep control of your drawn weapon while ground fighting.

youtu.be

Second question: Is there other on-line or in-person training can you recommend?


I'm interested in responses from those who have attended, presented, or developed weapons retention training programs. And who may have had occasion to use these techniques.

For what its worth,I was a defensive tactics instructor for the Niagara County Law Enforcement Academy for approx 22 years.

I also did a bit as a firearms instructor.

My take away was I was not trained enough so I took additional classes out of the departments stuff.

It was very hands on and a few scrapes were involved.

I "thought" that I was good enough,until my sifu offered to take my S&W model 581 from my level 2 security holster.

I invited him to try , his next question was " do you want your pistol back [ yes he was holding it ].

My lesson was a scary one in as much as one so trained could all too easily take my SECURE gun.

Any lessons learned from my bruised ego are all yours.

 

[DT Guy]

1. Use strong hand to pin firearm in the holster, attempting to 'lock' your elbow. If it has a retention device (thumbreak, similar) attempt to lock that with your grip on the firearm.
2. Do immediate, unrelenting violence to the attacker (particularly anything in contact with the weapon, their eyes and wind system) sufficient to force them to change tactics.
3. Employ weak hand weapons (TDI knives are popular for this, a D/A auto will also work) to attack eyes, face and anything in contact with the weapon.

Every attempted gun grab is an attempted murder, and it's response needs to be commensurate.

Larry

 

[Shodan]

You mention having training partners. Get a a Blue Gun or SIRT and get to it. You'll not only learn about weapon retention, but also about accessing your weapon and deficiencies in your gear.

Good for you realizing that there's more to carrying a gun than shooting.

 

[shafter]

Every attempted gun grab is an attempted murder, and it's response needs to be commensurate.

Larry

Intent and ability to succeed with the grab needs to be measured. In some cases deadly force may be an appropriate reply, in other cases a lesser level of violence may be appropriate and in still other cases pinning the gun and a hard shove may be sufficient.

I've had people grab for mine that stood no chance of winning in any aspect. They did not get stabbed or have their windpipe collapsed. Would I do so if I felt it necessary? Sure.

 

[JTHunter]

There's alot of junk out there these days. Realistically weapon retention isn't going to be neat and pretty with one person reaching across the gap to take your gun.

Its a sucker punch or a bear hug from behind that takes you to the ground that triggers the retention aspect. I firmly believe that a blade is the best weapon retention tool there is. It's nearly impossible to take a gun off someone who has a blade in the other hand but that's a discussion in itself with many rabbit holes and much garbage information.

It doesn't need to be an "edged" weapon. Seniors frequently use a cane of some kind but most "store-bought" ones are hollow tubes so they can be adjusted for a variety of individuals.
Back in the mid-90s, I purchased a heavy wooden walking stick that is shaped somewhat like a hockey stick. The shaft is not straight but, where it makes its bend, the wood is ~1.75" dia. with the short end (the handle) narrowing to ~1.25" and 6" long. Because of my ancestry, I frequently refer to this as my "shillelagh" and it is sturdy enough for that purpose. The only advantage to the store bought canes is that they usually have a "shepherd's crook" (curved) handle that could be used to hook arms, ankles, or necks to pull an opponent off balance.

 

[shafter]

It doesn't need to be an "edged" weapon. Seniors frequently use a cane of some kind but most "store-bought" ones are hollow tubes so they can be adjusted for a variety of individuals.
Back in the mid-90s, I purchased a heavy wooden walking stick that is shaped somewhat like a hockey stick. The shaft is not straight but, where it makes its bend, the wood is ~1.75" dia. with the short end (the handle) narrowing to ~1.25" and 6" long. Because of my ancestry, I frequently refer to this as my "shillelagh" and it is sturdy enough for that purpose. The only advantage to the store bought canes is that they usually have a "shepherd's crook" (curved) handle that could be used to hook arms, ankles, or necks to pull an opponent off balance.

A senior is going to have a pretty hard time using a cane against a younger, stronger and aggressive opponent who takes then by surprise. Perhaps if they start in opposite corners of a ring and go when the bell rings they may do some damage but the reality is people get jumped when they aren't looking and there are very few places where one can full contact spar with a cane and learn what actually works vs what seems good on paper.

The advantage of a blade for weapon retention is that the whole premise of having your gun taken is that your opponent has to be able to reach it which means they're also within your reach. Basically you are grappling at this point which means realistically you're on the ground. A blade requires very little strength to be effective if used by surprise and can be used in the tightest quarters.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Take the ECQC class from Southnarc, aka Craig Douglas, at Shivworks.

What is an ECQC?

Extreme Close Quarter ConceptsThe "flagship" two-and-a-half-day course offers a multi-disciplinary approach to building functional, combative handgun skills ...

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Shivworks: Your gateway to best self defense martial arts

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[luzyfuerza]

Get a Blue Gun

One is on its way...

 

[JTHunter]

A senior is going to have a pretty hard time using a cane against a younger, stronger and aggressive opponent who takes then by surprise. Perhaps if they start in opposite corners of a ring and go when the bell rings they may do some damage but the reality is people get jumped when they aren't looking and there are very few places where one can full contact spar with a cane and learn what actually works vs what seems good on paper.

The advantage of a blade for weapon retention is that the whole premise of having your gun taken is that your opponent has to be able to reach it which means they're also within your reach. Basically you are grappling at this point which means realistically you're on the ground. A blade requires very little strength to be effective if used by surprise and can be used in the tightest quarters.

That may be true but a cane has the ability to keep an assailant further away from the senior than an edged weapon. With an edged weapon, specifically a fair sized knife (fixed blade "hunting" knife), the perp is within "arm's length" while a cane can keep them at least 18" away, beyond arm's length.
And, if I can get a blow to their neck (esp. the front), it may crush their larynx and cause them to strangle. Or, one or both eyes to blind them, or the groin so they "sing soprano", or whack their wrist/arm, knocking their weapon out of their hand and disabling that arm/hand.

 

[shafter]

That may be true but a cane has the ability to keep an assailant further away from the senior than an edged weapon. With an edged weapon, specifically a fair sized knife (fixed blade "hunting" knife), the perp is within "arm's length" while a cane can keep them at least 18" away, beyond arm's length.
And, if I can get a blow to their neck (esp. the front), it may crush their larynx and cause them to strangle. Or, one or both eyes to blind them, or the groin so they "sing soprano", or whack their wrist/arm, knocking their weapon out of their hand and disabling that arm/hand.

A cane may have some use in certain situations if the user is skilled and has some degree of agility but how many people actually practice striking with a cane on a training partner that is going full speed? Easier said than done. Until it's trained at real life speed it's all hopes and dreams and lots of maybes.

You can take grandma in her wheelchair and if you put a knife in her hand she's a problem, especially if you don't know it's there until it sticks you.

 

[lemaymiami]

Weapons retention... should be mandatory training (even if it's just the basics...) for anyone carrying a sidearm... Remember there are a few really bad characters around that never go armed - since they fully intend to take yours if the situation (for them) warrants it... I've seen videos of prisoners practicing weapons grabs in the prison exercise grounds - and they were taken years ago - something to remember... My small agency (100 sworn authorized) did finally do some weapons retention drills for our officers when I was in charge of training and the very first thing we did was demonstrate just how easy it was to take a weapon from a holster (or hand...) - both face to face and from the rear.. All of us had good quality weapons retention holsters by the way...

In my era (1973 to 1995) a significant portion of officer deaths - were by their own weapon... something for every armed citizen to contemplate.

Your first line of defense, always, is distance - if you're armed do everything possible to keep your distance from any possible opponent. Learning "what's okay" and "what's not okay" in dealing with other people is a learned skill (and as my Dad said years ago - "You just can't stay scared for very long when you're in a combat zone.." ) so your life experiences come into play when in any possible confrontation situation. Weapons retention skills only come into play when you're allowed someone who intends harm to close with you...

Here's a true life story that had a good outcome (officer survived...) years ago. One of our officers, a skilled veteran with good hand to hand skills, responded by himself to an alarm call at a big box store and found two young men there - but no signs of a break in... As he was talking with them he allowed one of them to move so that he was actually in between the two for a moment - and that was all it took... The one to his rear cold cocked him with single punch, knocking him unconscious, then they removed his holstered weapon and were intending to shoot him with his own revolver when an elderly couple walking their dog approached and scared them off, saving the officer's life... That officer went on to become one of our best trainers years later... particularly in officer survival techniques... For some years later we heard rumors that the officer's sidearm (a good quality 357 mag service revolver) was available for rental in the bad side of town - to anyone needing a piece to something bad... PS... the two young men had committed a burglary to that store and tripped the alarm that the officer responded to - he just didn't see the break when he approached them...

Like I already said... anyone that intends to carry a sidearm (citizen, officer - anyone...) really needs weapons retention training - if for no other reason - just to impress on them how vulnerable that weapon makes them in any close quarters situation...

 

[wayneinFL]

It doesn't need to be an "edged" weapon. Seniors frequently use a cane of some kind but most "store-bought" ones are hollow tubes so they can be adjusted for a variety of individuals.
Back in the mid-90s, I purchased a heavy wooden walking stick that is shaped somewhat like a hockey stick. The shaft is not straight but, where it makes its bend, the wood is ~1.75" dia. with the short end (the handle) narrowing to ~1.25" and 6" long. Because of my ancestry, I frequently refer to this as my "shillelagh" and it is sturdy enough for that purpose. The only advantage to the store bought canes is that they usually have a "shepherd's crook" (curved) handle that could be used to hook arms, ankles, or necks to pull an opponent off balance.

A little off the topic of weapons retention, but a stick is an underrated, instinctive tool. I fought off dogs with a stick as a kid. The first real knife fight I had as an adult, the first thing I caught myself doing was looking around for a stick.

I used to work at a convenience store. About a block and a half away one of our customers was robbed at knifepoint. He picked up a chair and defended himself. No idea there why there was a chair next to the road. Pretty sure this guy had no formal training in chair fighting, but from what I heard he got the better of his attacker.

 

[shafter]

Something to consider is the commitment level of the attacker. Often we see an attacker being "defeated" by some technique or other whether that's a cane, a chair, or a pointed firearm, but what's really happening is that the attacker wasn't very committed in the first place.

It's a good outcome for the defender, I'd much rather face an uncommitted attacker, but it has to be factored in when considering defense techniques because what seemingly works may be completely ineffective against someone who's willing to go all the way. Those people need to be physically stopped.

 

[Sarge7402]

I don't have any training to recommend but I have a Safariland Level IV retention holster that I feel very comfortable with not loosing the firearm, unless the holster went with it....if that kind of stuff keeps you awake at night, they are the right stuff to be looking at.

One thing a lot of folks miss is that prison inmates practice getting your firearm away from you regardless of the protection level your holster provides. And they get very good at it.

If the other guy is trying to get your gun away from you the quickest and most effective retention skill is two to the gut. With more to follow if the first two don't have the desired effect

 

[jmorris]

One thing a lot of folks miss is that prison inmates practice getting your firearm away from you regardless of the protection level your holster provides. And they get very good at it.

They have to use sporks but they can have retention holsters and dummy guns for practice?

I figure they would just take the easy path and kill you with something else and leave you dead, with your gun still in the holster.

Seemed that the criminal in the case,with 21 prior arrests, just learned how to get his own gun first and forgo the holster training and wrestling lessons.

NYPD cop, 31, fatally shot by career criminal during Queens traffic stop ID’d as husband, dad of young child

Jonathan Diller, a 31-year-old cop with three years on the force, was shot in the stomach after police tried to remove the suspect from the passenger seat of the car.

nypost.com

 

[shafter]

They have to use sporks but they can have retention holsters and dummy guns for practice?

I figure they would just take the easy path and kill you with something else and leave you dead, with your gun still in the holster.

Seemed that the criminal in the case,with 21 prior arrests, just learned how to get his own gun first and forgo the holster training and wrestling lessons.

NYPD cop, 31, fatally shot by career criminal during Queens traffic stop ID’d as husband, dad of young child

Jonathan Diller, a 31-year-old cop with three years on the force, was shot in the stomach after police tried to remove the suspect from the passenger seat of the car.

nypost.com

Yeah they don't have Safariland in prison. Some bad guys do practice these things but it's on the outside not behind bars.

The urban legend won't die.

 

[wayneinFL]

Something to consider is the commitment level of the attacker. Often we see an attacker being "defeated" by some technique or other whether that's a cane, a chair, or a pointed firearm, but what's really happening is that the attacker wasn't very committed in the first place.

It's a good outcome for the defender, I'd much rather face an uncommitted attacker, but it has to be factored in when considering defense techniques because what seemingly works may be completely ineffective against someone who's willing to go all the way. Those people need to be physically stopped.

The guy stuck around for more than one whack with the chair. It shows some level of commitment to his livelihood as a robber. Anytime anyone even threatened me at work I marked "denied access" in the folder and went home. I didn't even get hit, let alone stick around for a second time.

 

[Sarge7402]

Yeah they don't have Safariland in prison. Some bad guys do practice these things but it's on the outside not behind bars.

The urban legend won't die.

Not an urban legend. I've worked inside a state prison for over 5 years and you can believe what you want, but I've seen this with my own eyes.

They may not have holsters or dummy guns, but they know the insides and out of weapons and holsters and they have not much else to keep them busy while inside.

 

[shafter]

Not an urban legend. I've worked inside a state prison for over 5 years and you can believe what you want, but I've seen this with my own eyes.

They may not have holsters or dummy guns, but they know the insides and out of weapons and holsters and they have not much else to keep them busy while inside.

I'm aware. I've spent my share of time in that world as well. There is a big difference between a discussion on weapons and holsters and actually training it.

Information and training are two different things.

 

[.38 Special]

I pretty much agree with @DT Guy.

I haven't done a whole lot of realistic training on weapon retention, because I never open carry. The two or so hours I have done indicate that it usually turns into a circus, and simple, brutal tactics are best. The fancy stuff tended not to work, especially when the grabber approaches from behind. (For special fun, set up one "attacker" who approaches from the front and then asks for the time. During that conversation, the real attacker approaches from behind and goes for the grab. We tried it on our victim without telling him, and the result was amusing.) Same with trying to get other weapons into play with the weak hand. Unless you've extensively trained with drawing and using secondary weapons with your weak hand, it's just not going to happen.

For attacks from the front, we decided on "Strong hand grabs the gun and forces it into the holster. Upper body spins a quarter turn away from the attacker. Weak hand comes up with the palm under the attackers chin (basically a palm-heel strike), violently driving the head back and up, which hopefully is enough to get the guy off of you, at least momentarily." (It looks a lot like the first step of the Krav "choke defense", except with strong hand on the gun and the weak hand executing the strike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fIm1Nt9Z0E )

From behind, we never found anything that worked every time. It's really a hellish scenario. The best we found was a variation on the above, with the strong hand forcing the gun into the holster, the body rotating away from the attackers grip, and the left elbow up for what hopefully ends up in a rotating strike. That often failed, though, and ended up in a general melee - sometimes with your gun in the attacker's hand. Some people preferred rotating toward the attacker, which tends to interfere with the attacker's grip/wrist - but from there, it's hard to find a really clean/powerful strike, so again, melee time. One guy got pretty good at a full 180 spin toward the attacker, which resulted in either completely breaking the attacker's grip on the gun, or with the attacker now stretched across the defender's body in a way that left him open to counter attack. A downside is that you're now squared up with a violent attacker, and you better be completely ready to go with the guy. Another downside is that turning into the direction of the grab/attacker is unnatural for most people. Most of us aren't going to do it "in real life" without a whole lot of training. I am strongly in the camp that recommends building on - rather than trying to overcome - the body's natural reactions as much as possible.

Anyway, things to play with on the mat. Good luck, and let us know what ends up working - and not.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Every attempted gun grab is an attempted murder, and it's response needs to be commensurate.

Whatever approach is chosen, we have to fight like our lives depend on not losing (control of the gun).