Weekly 7.62x39 Ammo Survey

[Creeping Incrementalism]

I believe the TAP line is all in cartridges used by law enforcement. Do you know any law enforcement agencies using 7.62x39? Maybe that's what they meant by no market.

Several other American companies have sold SP 7.62x39, and Cor-Bon sells a self-defense round, as I recall. Cosmoline said a friend of his brought down a Moose with a semi-auto shooting Cor-Bon 150 grain 7.62x39.

What I wonder is that since TAP use V-Max bullets with cannelures, you think Hornady would sell the bullet as a reloading component, but they only sell V-Max bullets with no cannelure.

Wolf Military Classic (Uly) HP 7.62x39 is all you need, from what I've heard--it reliably expands and penetrates, unlike regular Wolf HP (Tula).

 

[mp510]

At a Delaware K-Mart I was able to get over a dozen boxes of Winchester soft-point for $6 a piece on clearance. The boxes appear to be about a decade or so old. Oh, and don't bother going to try and get some- I cleared out their inventory.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I was able to get over a dozen boxes of Winchester soft-point for $6 a piece on clearance. The boxes appear to be about a decade or so old.

I bought out a guy's stash of 7.62x39 ammo about a year ago. It included several thousand rounds of Wolf 122 and 154 grain, some Silver Bear, etc. It also included over 900 rounds of Winchester and almost 1,200 rounds of American Eagle, in 20 round boxes that show a LOT of shelf wear. The Winchester and AE, of course, are in reloadable brass cases. The best part is that I paid the equivalent of about 6 cents a round for the lot.

 

[jagdpanzer347]

Excellent post, Shootist. Glad I ordered 2k of Wolf from Midway when it was 113.95. Now I wish I would have ordered two more!

By the way, Midway now shows poly Wolf at 152.95. And Wideners shows Military Classic at 149.00.

At the rate 7.62x39 prices are climbing I might order a case of LC 30/06 and some reloading dies and start working out the M1.

-jagd

 

[MechAg94]

I don't see that 7.62X39 is climbing anymore. The price has been pretty stable since the Feb or March from what I have seen. $160 a case or in that range is what I have been seeing.

 

[jagdpanzer347]

For what it's worth I bought the 2k of wolf in June/July. It was a backorder, but shipped in less than two weeks IIRC. At the time I hestitated about ordering because of the price. Now, two months later it's forty bucks more a case. Oh well, pay the price or shoot something else.

-jagd

 

[The_Shootist]

Yeah

My final bit of info was an email from ammunitionstore.com today advising price on Wlf MC for 1000 rds was $ 194 (incl shipping).

Glad I bought my Brown Bear from AIM over the weekend, although going to their site today they had a message about "unusually high orders" over the weekend

 

[BoySetsTheFire]

With regard to the failure to fire, I would suspect the rifle and not the ammo. Perhaps there is a trigger group problem or an improperly replaced firing pin. The Russian ammo is designed for a harder strike.

 

[possum]

Made a trip up to Cabelas and got a couple of cases for $170 each after posting "My SKS and AK are hungry" thread.

In kc, i assume, i raerly make it up there but definetly need to go back!

 

[Metapotent]

What am I missing? Am I the only idiot who thinks there is a market for domestically-produced premium 7.62x39 ammo? I'm thinking I ought to start making and selling it myself, since no one else is....

Wait, doesn't American Eagle make 7.62X39mm???

 

[ocabj]

 

[Gewehr98]

I'm with ocabj on that one.

I've got about 10K of reloadable brass (being a range officer has perks), and enough AA1680 powder, CCI #34 primers, and IMI 123gr bullets to assemble almost all of the cases. Not a big priority for me right now, because I already have another 1000 rounds of handloaded 7.62x39 already sitting in the ammo cans and magazines ready to shoot. Somebody once told me it was not economical to handload 7.62x39 ammo.

Lest anybody forget, the prices for base metals like copper and lead have taken a significant jump, and with the increase in fuel prices, one doesn't need a rocket science degree to figure out why ammo prices in general have gone up in the last year. Throw a bunch of new SAR-1, WASR-10, and Yugo SKS rifles into the market, in a chambering that's also being used by participants in the current conflict in Iraq, and it's a no-brainer.

We'll see domestic white-box 7.62x39 ammo hit the shelves again, but only after Blount/Olin/UMC feel confident they won't get clobbered in the retail market by a fresh influx of imported surplus at considerably lower prices.

In the meantime...

http://www.dillonprecision.com

 

[oldfart]

"I still don't understand it. The ammo companies make all kinds of obscure calibers for rifles that are only used for hunting. Those rifles can't go through more than a half box of ammo a year, and there are far fewer of them out there than there are SKS's, AK's and Mini-30's."

I've run into the same mindset on reloading supplies. Here in Portland, we have several stores that carry reloading stuff. Yet none of them carry match-grade bullets unless you special order them. I wnt to the trouble of contacting the head office of one such company (Bi Mart) and pointed out that target shooters go through thousands of rounds a year while hunters only shoot a couple of boxes of Remchester for sighting in and hunting too, then the rifle goes back in the closet until next year. The manager I spoke to acknowledged that there might be a market for match bullets and said something about carrying more of them in the future. I've been watching for over a year now and haven't seen any change on the shelves.
Since then I've suggested it to a couple of other chains and they all seem to think that they'll do it when their competitor does. No one wants to take the first step. Instead, they all want to stick with the status quo, whatever that is.

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Gewehr98,

Here and ar15.com, people have shown that there isn't enough copper in ammunition to account for more than a tiny fraction of the price increase, and has there really been a lead price increase? As for fuel, it costs virtually nothing in terms of fuel to transport ammo across the ocean, and I don't think it is all that far from Tula to the nearest port. Iraq is a more likely reason, though I don't know if it accounts for all of it.

By the way, Blount sold its sporting goods divisions to ATK.

 

[buzz_knox]

Iraq is a more likely reason, though I don't know if it accounts for all of it.

Rumor has it that everyone in that region or nearby (including Russia) is stocking up big time on small arms ammo. Concern that something other than Iraq is going to pop seems to be the most likely reason.

 

[Gewehr98]

I disagree.

Because of the amount of copper in bullet jackets (darned near 100% by composition), and the copper used in cartridge brass when alloyed with zinc.

Copper prices have seen an ungawdly hike, and they continue to do so. Part of the reason is expanded consumption by China, for example, coils in their air conditioners. That's copper tubing that Speer/Sierra/Nosler/Olin and the like aren't going to get, or get as cheaply for their bullet jackets. China, btw, is sucking the market dry in many commodities, not just copper. Another reason is the on-again, off-again strike at the large copper mine in Chile.

Regarding fuel, the container ship from Russia is only one consumer, then there's the trains and trucks moving the stuff from Long Beach or one of the East Coast ports to the distributors and on to the retailers. Somebody's gotta pay for that, want to guess who it is?

My father retired a few years ago from an Olin-operated Army Ammunition Plant that made Ball Powder. I got a good look at the facility as his guest, it was an energy-intensive operation, I have no doubt rising fuel prices tie in directly with the cost of the finished product at similar facilities.

The jump in ammunition prices over the last year may very well not be proportional to the rise in cost of the raw materials, but then again, the jump in gasoline prices at the pump doesn't exactly have a linear footing with the price of crude oil, either.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2625220

Interesting about Blount selling off the ammo line, including Federal.

Regarding ARFCOM, no thanks. The place is nothing but a flame-fest these days, it really could stand some adult supervision.

 

[MisterPX]

Why is it that most of the reloaders I see who tell me the cost of their reloads don't include time and misc. lubes/media? Anyhow, the amount of copper in russian ammo is very miniscule, and there's no copper in a steel case.

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

It would be interesting to see a price breakdown of the costs of ammo production, but based on what I know, I'd still bet against you.


There just isn't that much copper in ammunition, even if it is almost the entire jacket (and I know Tula mixes some other metal with copper). Trains and ships are highly efficient. For ships, for example, the total cost is about 1% of the value of the goods, or less. Power plants are efficient too. Also, power plants normally use coal, and I don't think that has shot up as much as gasoline.

Another point to consider is that fact that Wolf's price has increased far more than that of reloading components.

What we need is someone to open Excel, get some commodity prices and raw materials in ammo by weight, and solve this.

 

[Father Knows Best]

What bullet for reloading russkie?

I do reload. In fact, I have two Dillon 550's on the bench (one set up for small primers, and the other for large). I mostly reload pistol ammo for competition shooting, but a big part of the reason I bought out that guy's stash of 7.62x39 was to get the 2,000+ rounds of brass-cased reloadable Winchester and American Eagle he had. As I shoot it up, I'm saving the brass for reloading.

Question to those of you who reload 7.62x39 -- what bullets do you use? There's an incredible selection in .308, but I haven't found much in .311 -- at least not what I would consider match grade, or premium hunting bullets. That's why I lobbied Hornady about the TAP line. If they'd just offer the TAP bullet in .311, I'd load up my own 7.62x39 personal defense ammo.

 

[Gewehr98]

FatherKnowsBest, think bulk purchases...

Because buying a box of Hornady 123gr .311 bullets, either FMJ or SP, isn't the most economical way to go.

I don't use handloads for defensive ammo for my own legal reasons, but my SHTF AK (sidefolder SAR-1) is loaded with factory Winchester or PMC soft points, tracers every 5 rounds, and Cor-Bon 125JHP for when it's needed. I do handload Winchester 123gr soft points for deer season, works great on whitetail.

Try places like Widener's, Natchez, or Midsouth Shooter's Supply. Go for the bulk Israeli (IMI), Russian (Barnaul) or Winchester 123gr .311 bullets, typically in lots of 500-1000. I see Remington is offering a case of 2000 125gr .310" CoreLokt bullets, but their price for that volume really isn't anything to write home about.

Widener's has 123gr Winchester PowerPoints for $10.70/100, which still isn't the best deal, but better than the Remington stuff above. I lucked out and bought 10,000 of the Russian Barnaul surplus bullets when Widener's had them not too long ago, as well as a big batch of the Winchesters above before prices went wild.

Bulk prices for AA1680 (my favorite 7.62x39 and 7.62x45 powder) aren't that great ($112.00/8 pounds, you need 4 pounds for 1000 rounds of 7.62x39), but every now and again one gets a deal on surplus military repackaged powders, (remember Accurate 2200 Data powder?) so keep an eye open. You need about 24 grains per round, factor that into your 7000gr/pound purchase price and work your reloading economy from there.

CCI #34 primers are fairly cheap, $70/5000. I like using the #34 primers in autoloaders without firing pin rebound springs as an extra measure of safety.

As for not counting the cost of my reloading labor and lubricants, it's because I consider that time in the shop at home reloading therapeutic, and it probably keeps my marriage together after I spend all the hours at the range. Likewise, I don't charge myself an hourly rate when I'm in the shower, on the throne, or in the sack with Mrs. G-98. (Weak argument, that "labor cost of reloading" thing, *** else were you gonna do, go shopping at J.C. Penneys?) As for the staggering additional overhead cost of sizing lube, one bottle of spray lube has lasted me about 5 years to date. Same goes for the tin of Imperial Sizing Die wax I bought about 8 years ago. As a rule, one doesn't usually immerse the cases in lube before running them through the resizing die, a little bit goes a long way.

I figure the brass amortizes itself either when it's given to me, or the first time I reload it. As for steel-cased stuff, it'll NEVER be fired in any of my AK or SKS rifles, nor for that matter any of my other 100+ rifles.

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Weak argument, that "labor cost of reloading" thing, *** else were you gonna do, go shopping at J.C. Penneys?)

Work overtime. Or, do work around the house yourself, instead of hiring someone.

Also, I did the math, and copper prices are responsible for, at most, 5-10 bucks worth of price increase per 1000. On AR15.com, someone did cost of ammo vs. price of gold, and it wasn't going up like it did with the dollar, so the declining value of the dollar probably has more to do with it, along with supply and demand.

As for steel-cased stuff, it'll NEVER be fired in any of my AK or SKS rifles

Not sure how you justify that, considering they were made for steel-cased ammo. I'm not even sure how many, if any, more problems steel causes for other firearms, than brass. Like, Ruger said don't use steel-case in the Mini, yet the ones I've seen have the same jam rate with or without it, and nothing has broken yet.

 

[ocabj]

While I do not reload 7.62x39, I do know of a bullet manufacturer that makes a bullet for it: http://www.goldenwestbrass.com/

Golden West is a Southern California based company. They make true FMJ. I have used their 55gr .223, 124gr 9mm, and 147 9mm. Good stuff. Quite a few people in SoCal use their stuff and they have a good reputation. I haven't purchased from them via the website (which they only put in the past year). I've only gone to their location for an in person pick-up. They're not very well known and I think most of the people who heard about Golden West found out about them from their ad in Shotgun News.