Weighing the Risks of Armed Defense

[samadams]

I hope that this can spark some legitimate discussion of what I feel is a valid conversation.

I have spent some time here on THR in the spirit of learning to protect my family. My initial reaction was to arm myself and become legally able to conceal carry a firearm to protect them. As I've further considered, I've become more aware of the liability I might be entering to have a handgun. ND, discovery, dressing different, fending off casual embraces and (heaven forbid) actual use of the handgun. Life is about weighing risk and determining your best option. I am fortunate to live in a relatively "safe" area and in all of my 40+ years -- never been mugged, robbed, kidnapped, or assaulted. Let's assume that I'd been carrying that last 20 years --- lots of risk and never needed. How do you weight the risk vs. need? Is the "safest" thing for my family to avoid the risk of carrying a loaded handgun daily? Has anyone else considered this as an issue?

What about a loaded handgun in the house. I've never had a home invasion situation. In 40+ years, never need a gun within 30 seconds. The risk of having a loaded handgun (with kids in the home) are great. How do you weight those risks? Thanks for any insight you can provide on how you deal with this issue.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

You have to be carefull. I have kids and dont leave the guns "Loaded". It would take a me few seconds to get the gun and load it, but that is it.

I did have a situation where I needed a gun, didnt have to use it, but having it was the difference. That is the problem with these things..... You may never "Need" one, but if you "Need" on and dont have it, you may not get a second chance to reconsider, unfortunately.

 

[sturmgewehr667]

you may not have had a home invasion or been attacked outside the home yet, but tomorrow it could happen and because you worried about all the hassles of carrying, you could be dead

 

[FoMoGo]

Anyone... anywhere... anytime... can be attacked.
In that instant, any misgivings you have/had are rendered null and void.
As to loaded guns in the house... I have 6 loaded pistols, 3 loaded shotguns, and 2 loaded rifles in the house.
They are spread around so I have quick access to one of them any where in the house I am.
I also have one strapped to me anytime I am clothed.
There is nothing for me to weigh out.
I make small concessions to my clothing.
Mostly a better belt and a holster.
I dont worry about my children and the guns.
My kids clean the guns after range time... they shoot them at range time.
They understand the word NO... and also understand DONT TOUCH.
They grew up around guns, guns are no more interesting to them than a crock pot for the most part.
The only time they get excited is when it is time to hit the range.
Otherwise the guns are normal household implements.
They can handle any of them any time they want, as long as they ask.
I have set unloaded guns out on the table for days at a time as a test... and they dont get touched.
Kids use to hunt to feed the family, they had their own guns... and there were very few incidents.
Kids are now not allowed to touch guns, and they have become an object of curiosity... and incidents happen regularly.
It isnt the guns fault... it can be argued that it is partly not the kids fault... because kids are curious... it is mostly the parents fault for making it an object to be searched for and fondled in secret.

I dont find guns to be a liability.
They are there to protect me, provide me with enjoyment and recreation, and to protect my family.
If I use it in a SD application... it would have been much more of a liability to not have it.


Jim

 

[withdrawn34]

What we try to learn and implement here, and on other similar firearms and defense related forums, are basic firearm safety techniques which help to reduce, or really even eliminate, the risk of the firearm.

A properly handled and holstered modern pistol is no risk at all when carried around. In that sense, there is no "risk" to carrying a loaded handgun. It doesn't go off unless you turn off applicable safeties and pull the trigger all the way back.

Same in the house. Gun won't go off by itself. With kids, locking the gun (not just hiding it!) in a place where only you can get it (like a single key that is on your person at all times, or maybe a combination type lock that only you know the random combination, not just your birthday or such, to works) or carrying the gun on your person greatly minimizes the risks of kids and guns. It is also of paramount importance to do this to prevent a casual thief from stealing your firearm and using it in other crimes.

And most importantly with kids, its important to teach them how to safely shoot as soon as possible, with "beat over their head" emphasis on safety, safety, safety. As they get older, have them do more advanced things like reloading, unloading and such. Kids are curious; that's their nature. It's how they learn about the world around them.

Their curiosity is going to extend to any guns as well... its important to satisfy their curiosity while YOU are around and RIGHT THERE. Otherwise, they will discover it one day when you are not home, and disastrous results often follow. You wouldn't leave a sharp kitchen knife in your child's playpen, right? So don't leave firearms around the house carelessly. Kids will find things, so you have to physically limit access and not just hope they don't find your ingenous hiding spot because they will. When I was kid I was pretty good at finding things.

Also, note that most home invasion scenarios actually often play out very quickly. That 30 second figure you quoted is enough for the entire incident to transpire and for you or your family to get shot and the bad guy(s) run away. It happens THAT fast. First time crime victims are usually traumatized because it happens so fast and so "in your face" that its hard to believe what just happened.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

It's good to think this sort of thing through. Guns are kind of like homeowners insurance. You'll probably never use it, but if you need it, you REALLY need it. Then again, not all of us carry the maximum insurance for our homes. Why? We don't think the risk is there.

I know this thinking might go contrary to many here, but having readily accessible loaded guns may not be worth the risks in some situations.

Then again, if I lived where I needed to have 11 guns stashed around the house and one on me to ensure I felt safe, I'd move.

but tomorrow it could happen and because you worried about all the hassles of carrying, you could be dead

He could also get hit by a piece of ice falling off an airplane, but that probably won't happen either.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

It's not about the odds, it's about the stakes.

 

[samadams]

Thank you all for sharing your opinion. Great conversation. I do understand the idea that just because you've never been in a car accident -- that does not mean that you should not wear your seatbelt. However, this is different. I've concealed carried with a round in the chamber and felt the responsibility of knowing there was a loaded handgun on my person. Even following all safety precautions -- there is a risk of having this weapon with you. How do you weight this against the chance that something might happen.

 

[FoMoGo]

Then again, if I lived where I needed to have 11 guns stashed around the house and one on me to ensure I felt safe, I'd move.

I live in a town of 6,500 people with pretty much zero crime.
On the news you see terrible crimes that happen in Mayberry communities... and the people interviewed always say "This is a quiet town... things like this never happen here."
Guess what... these things happen everywhere.
I have the guns... They are good for hunting, target shooting, plinking for fun, self defense.
I figure... I have them... might as well load them up and have them ready.
Its better to have it and not need it... than need it and not have it.


Jim

 

[FoMoGo]

I've concealed carried with a round in the chamber and felt the responsibility of knowing there was a loaded handgun on my person. Even following all safety precautions -- there is a risk of having this weapon with you.

What risk?
Guns dont go off by themselves.
Follow the 4 rules, carry it in a good holster... There is much more risk in not having it... than in having it.


Jim

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Well, FoMoGo, if you want to have 11 guns stashed throughout your house, knock yourself out. I personally keep most of mine in one big pile rather than spread them out all over.

It's not about the odds, it's about the stakes.

You know, I used to like that saying, but the more I thought about it, the less accurate it seems. If you really followed that, you'd never get travel on roads, you'd never eat a medium rare steak, and you'd never be in a relationship.

 

[samadams]

Did you mean, medium rare stakes?

 

[samadams]

FoMoGo - I hear you. But really, unloaded guns in the closet are less likely to go off than a loaded gun in my holster...even following the 4 rules. Even with the utmost of precaution and responsibility -- there is a risk.

 

[chipp]

I don't feel guns are for everyone. I would recomomend a safety course and a quik access combination safe.

When someone first starts handling a gun they are very awkward. I would want to be past that point before having a gun around a family. And if its not on your body. in a safe

If someone absent minded and or/and very un mechanical. Maybe they shouldn't have one.
just my opinion

 

[FoMoGo]

FoMoGo - I hear you. But really, unloaded guns in the closet are less likely to go off than a loaded gun in my holster...even following the 4 rules. Even with the utmost of precaution and responsibility -- there is a risk.

Most "accidents" are people shot with "unloaded" guns.
Apply that mindset to all areas of your life.
Dont drive, someone could run into you.
Dont go out in the day, you could get skin cancer.
Dont associate with people, you could pick up a virus.

You let, what in my eyes looks to be, irrational fear run your life... and then what kind of life are you left to live?


Jim

 

[mljdeckard]

For me, it's a question of how old they are. My kids range from 2-10 years old. Even if I can feasibly train the older ones about safety, and de-mystify guns, the younger ones still can't be trusted. This means, there must be an ongoing training plan, and in the meantime, all guns are under the military definition of secure. Either under lock and key, or within line of sight at all times.

Doing the math, it's entirely possible, (Though not at all desireable,) that by the time my youngest is old enough to responsibly handle guns, my oldest will be procreating. Or I might get a gap of several years. But eventually there will be grandkids running around. I may not ever have a household where I can just leave a gun on the nightstand and not worry about it.

 

[samadams]

Chipp - Your comment is valid, but I'm not sure applicable to my situation. I grew up with firearms (shooting & hunting). My father has conceal carried for the past 35 years (most of my life -- I understand the concept). I've been trained to conceal carry. While everyone can benefit from more training -- I'm not totally new to firearm handling and safety. Actually, I think that my awareness of handling and possible dangers of firearms has caused me to post what I hope is a thoughtful question.

 

[Doc_Jude]

I dont worry about my children and the guns.
My kids clean the guns after range time... they shoot them at range time.
They understand the word NO... and also understand DONT TOUCH.
They grew up around guns, guns are no more interesting to them than a crock pot for the most part.
The only time they get excited is when it is time to hit the range.
Otherwise the guns are normal household implements.
They can handle any of them any time they want, as long as they ask.
I have set unloaded guns out on the table for days at a time as a test... and they dont get touched.
Kids use to hunt to feed the family, they had their own guns... and there were very few incidents.
Kids are now not allowed to touch guns, and they have become an object of curiosity... and incidents happen regularly.
It isnt the guns fault... it can be argued that it is partly not the kids fault... because kids are curious... it is mostly the parents fault for making it an object to be searched for and fondled in secret.

A Most Excellent Post!!! This is how I'm raising my girls, & with all sides of the family containing lifelong shooters & shooting instructors, I am confident that this mindset will be reinforced.

Myself, if the gun isn't on me, it's put away.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Steaks are delicious. However it's a simplified way of saying if you really NEED a firearm and you don't have it, YOU or members of your family DIE. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter if you are 90 years old and you've never had to defend your life or that of your loved ones before. It doesn't matter if it's a 1 in a billion chance of happening. When it happens to you it's real, it's happening right now, and you damn well better be prepared.
ETA- Guns are not inherently dangerous. Stupid people are. If you follow the 4 rules you will never, ever shoot someone by accident. If you instill the same in your kids and they obey the rules they will never shoot anyone by accident. It's not a toy, it's a tool. It's to be respected always. If that's not something that will happen you should not own a firearm.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

I got lucky with the "casual embraces" part.

I saw a girl I'd gone to high school with, and she rather quickly moved in for a hug on my strong side.

Luckily, my 1911 thumped into her purse, and she was none the wiser.


Since I'm about a good head taller than most of the people that I'm on hugging basis with, I usually offer my left arm and shoulder, while leaning forward hips, away from them.


But yeah, I realized quickly that hugs could put me in a dangerous situation with the wrong person.


"WHAT IS THAT!?!?"

 

[FoMoGo]

This is how I'm raising my girls, & with all sides of the family containing lifelong shooters & shooting instructors, I am confident that this mindset will be reinforced.

A friend of mine was watching me and my boys... 12 and 14.
The oldest has a lot more interest in guns than the youngest.
I took out my .44, opened the cyl... checked to see that it was loaded.
he was next to me and looked when I opened the cyl.
I closed the cyl and handed it to him.
Immediately he opens the cyl himself... just to be certain it was unloaded.
I had him checking the trigger, as I had done some work on it.
He positioned himself so that he was facing the field behind the house and pointed it at a 45* angle towards the floor while he stroked it in DA and SA... and broke off dry fire and pointed the muzzle in a safe direction when his line of sight was crossed.
It was remarked that instructors had been seen with less proper handling techniques than my son had.
That is safety and responsibility drilled into him.


Jim

 

[goon]

It's worth considering but it's kind of pointless to base your decision on what works for any of us. Just have to think this stuff over and decide for yourself.

 

[30mag]

"The risk of having a loaded handgun (with kids in the home) are great."

I think the risk is great, but statistically, I think children are more likely to drown in a pool than shoot themselves. (cite: Freakonomics)


Edit:
For the record, I'm not advocating carelessness.
These statistics are the way they are because most people are smart and practice gun safety.

 

[samadams]

I've been reading some of the scenario debates on gun sites and it is interesting to hear the "john wayne" responses about how people would react to a situation, when in reality we live in a very litigious society and that decision is a very serious one. It will have ramifications on many facets of your life. Since the OP was talking about caring for your family -- what liability and lawsuits have you opened yourself up to by firing your piece -- even with the best of intentions.

For those who have already posted, thanks for your comments. Most of you seem to have clearly made up your minds that the risk of carry are outweighed by the benefits. I'm glad that you have put serious thought to this responsibly. I'm not yet sure.

 

[FoMoGo]

Would your family rather deal with a potential lawsuit... or deal with putting you, your wife, or your children in the cold ground?


Jim