weight or speed more important for bullet?

[Texasgrillchef]

For this discussion, I am using as an example. 45 colt, 250gr XTP, or 300gr XTP.
Only difference in bullet is 50grs. Using a Heavy 30k loading.

Following Hornady’s loading manual...
Theoretically speaking...
On the 250gr XTP you can achieve about 1350fps max. (My chrono 1368fps average)
On the 300gr XTP you can achieve about 1300fps max. (My chrono 1305fps average)

Albeit to achieve those maximums, each is using a different powder. Obviously the gun used makes a difference. But with all things being equal...

If your hitting your target, let’s assume animal for hunting or SD, in the exact same spot on the animal.

Which is more important? Bullet weight or speed?

Obviously in this example the difference in weight is only 50grs, and a difference of 50fps. So might not be big enough difference to make a difference. But then if this is the case, why have a 250gr and 300gr version of the same bullet?

If I am hitting the animal in the same kill spot. Both will make the kill so why use one over the other?

I have actually loaded and fired both. Felt recoil I couldn’t tell the difference between the two. Accuracy difference was negligible and unnoticeable to me. Cost was the same other then the cost of powder. average Chrono speed on both was faster then published, but then they were fired out of SBR Henry mares leg (13”)

When I fired into Clear Ballistics 10% gel. Average depth was basically the same. 1/4” to half inch difference at most. Expansion, very minor differences.

 

[earlthegoat2]

For 45 Colt, I don’t think your going to get radical differences with similarly constructed bullets. Getting into the 2500+ FPS range will start showing differences between bullet weights since lighter bullets will shed weight marginally faster as speed goes up.

To oversimplify things, a heavier bullet is less likely to shed weight to the point of not penetrating properly.

This is an oversimplification though because it fails to take into account bullet construction.

I know everyone loves the “all else being equal” qualification but given that qualification I would say a heavier bullet is nearly always going to penetrate further because it is going to have higher sectional density. (A conversation for another thread)

To me, bullet speed really only matters to achieve flatter trajectories and longer MPBR (or less bullet drop if your into that life). Once again, this is not extremely important with the 45 Colt. Max range on that is nearly identical with a 250 or 300.

 

[Demi-human]

I know everyone loves the “all else being equal” qualification

Right. And they aren’t usually.

Obviously in this example the difference in weight is only 50grs, and a difference of 50fps. So might not be big enough difference to make a difference. But then if this is the case, why have a 250gr and 300gr version of the same bullet?

That is not the case in many firearms. The 250 is just enough shorter to work better in slower twists.
The terminal effects may be the same, but the accuracy could be different for other guns.

I thought the 300 was a “Magnum” version. The 250 comes apart at Bushmaster speed.

You have good loads for your Mares Leg, or you have a nice Henry.

 

[243winxb]

not big enough difference to make a difference.

This covers it.

If there was more a difference in velocity, the higher fps is better.

Bullet construction is more important. Sierra makes the core of the bullet from four lead alloys: 6% antimony-4% tin, 6% antimony, 3% antimony, 1 1/2% antimony and pure lead.

 

[WrongHanded]

Broadside on a deer, it won't matter.

Head on against a charging moose, it might make a difference.

(Notice how I said moose, and not bear, so this doesn't become a bear thread? You're all welcome. )

 

[Richard Jay King]

For this discussion, I am using as an example. 45 colt, 250gr XTP, or 300gr XTP.
Only difference in bullet is 50grs. Using a Heavy 30k loading.

Following Hornady’s loading manual...
Theoretically speaking...
On the 250gr XTP you can achieve about 1350fps max. (My chrono 1368fps average)
On the 300gr XTP you can achieve about 1300fps max. (My chrono 1305fps average)

Albeit to achieve those maximums, each is using a different powder. Obviously the gun used makes a difference. But with all things being equal...

If your hitting your target, let’s assume animal for hunting or SD, in the exact same spot on the animal.

Which is more important? Bullet weight or speed?

Obviously in this example the difference in weight is only 50grs, and a difference of 50fps. So might not be big enough difference to make a difference. But then if this is the case, why have a 250gr and 300gr version of the same bullet?

If I am hitting the animal in the same kill spot. Both will make the kill so why use one over the other?

I have actually loaded and fired both. Felt recoil I couldn’t tell the difference between the two. Accuracy difference was negligible and unnoticeable to me. Cost was the same other then the cost of powder. average Chrono speed on both was faster then published, but then they were fired out of SBR Henry mares leg (13”)

When I fired into Clear Ballistics 10% gel. Average depth was basically the same. 1/4” to half inch difference at most. Expansion, very minor differences.

Not trying to be a smart Aleck but the bullet that reaches and disruptes the vital organs from the angle of the shot taken is the most important. With hunting handguns in .45 caliber penetration has always proved to be more important to me than expansion...

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I don't think it will make any difference between those two loads your using. Both will punch clear through just about anything we have in the lower 48.
The 250 grain XTP may mushroom better though.

If I am hitting the animal in the same kill spot. Both will make the kill so why use one over the other?

That 300 gr XTP may be for the .454 Casull. These are XTPs, not soft lead bullets of the same hardness, so they may have a different expansion rate.

 

[Texas10mm]

You're saying "only" 50 grains.

However the 300 gr is 20% heavier than the 250 gr.

 

[Steve S.]

All things being equal, I have seen death that happens 50 grains heavier and 50 grains lighter - neither I nor the animal could tell the difference. When I approached the game, I would tell them what grain weight bullet they were shot with however, I would never get a response.

 

[Charlie98]

You are probably better off, for the sake of discussion, picking a different cartridge. .45 Colt is limited by SAMMI pressures and the firearms it goes in, unless you are being silly, or have something like a Ruger #3 in .45 Colt. As some have mentioned, the terminal differences are more left up to bullet construction than anything else at the smaller velocity differences in your example.

You could take a .44MAG... and compare the 180grn XTP vs the 300grn XTP, 1900fps vs 1300fps... or thereabouts.

 

[mcb]

Right. And they aren’t usually.


That is not the case in many firearms. The 250 is just enough shorter to work better in slower twists.
The terminal effects may be the same, but the accuracy could be different for other guns.

I thought the 300 was a “Magnum” version. The 250 comes apart at Bushmaster speed.

You have good loads for your Mares Leg, or you have a nice Henry.

There are two version of the XTP bullet in .452 diameter. There is the XTP and the XTP-Mag.

The XTP comes in 250 gr and 300 gr versions. These were meant for 45 Colt from traditional to pretty hot and have a terminal velocity range (according to an old Hornady publication that is no longer on Hornady's website but all over the web) of 800-1600 fps and 800-1700 fps respectively.

The XTP-Mag come in 240 gr and 300 gr versions and is rated for a terminal velocity of 1100-2100 fps for both. I believe these were originally designed for the 454 Casull and maybe the 460 S&W.

I have used both weights of the XTP-Mag in my 450 Bushmaster and they work fairly well. I have used both version the XTP and XTP-Mag 300 gr version in my muzzle loader with sabots and did not seen much difference terminally on deer. They both shoot clear through them and leaved a moderate exit hole, but I am only launching them at ~1500 fps so that is well inside the velocity range for both versions.

Given the OP velocities I think I would use the regular version unless he is planning on something thick skinned that needs more penetration than expansion. I am a fan of heavy for caliber when I can so I would start with the 300 gr version and only move down if accuracy or similar issues required it.

 

[AJC1]

If they both meet your requirements, log the loads and shoot the one that uses less powder first. These are times of low supply so conserving your resources is priority.

 

[jmorris]

If your hitting your target, let’s assume animal for hunting or SD, in the exact same spot on the animal.

Which is more important? Bullet weight or speed?

I agree with the comparison being more apples to apples than most. What one shoots better at your intended ranges? Depends on where the spot of impact is exactly. Also might be better to have two different lethal impact points that shooting a hole in a hole.

 

[entropy]

The answer depends entirely on the intended terminal ballistics.

 

[TxWolf]

The old formula e=mc2 holds true to bullet performance. Velocity kills all else being equal.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

You are probably better off, for the sake of discussion, picking a different cartridge. .45 Colt is limited by SAMMI pressures and the firearms it goes in, unless you are being silly, or have something like a Ruger #3 in .45 Colt. As some have mentioned, the terminal differences are more left up to bullet construction than anything else at the smaller velocity differences in your example.

You could take a .44MAG... and compare the 180grn XTP vs the 300grn XTP, 1900fps vs 1300fps... or thereabouts.

I don’t have or load 44 mag... But your point is clear... so then for 44mag. Why would one use a 180g XTP over a 300gr XTP or vice versa? Distance?

 

[mcb]

I don’t have or load 44 mag... But your point is clear... so then for 44mag. Why would one use a 180g XTP over a 300gr XTP or vice versa? Distance?

Lots of reason for choosing different bullet weights, lighter bullets produce less recoil at similar velocities to heavier bullets. In a competition setting that has a recoil floor (ie Power Factor in USPSA/IDPA) heavier bullets produce a more pleasant recoil (in most shooters opinion) impulse than lighter bullet loaded to the same recoil impulse (velocity X mass) Lighter bullet are typical cheaper than heavier of the similar construction. Lighter bullets can be pushed faster than heavier bullet from the same cartridge, this can produce flatter trajectories in most cases. Lighter bullets tend to be more reactive at the target both due to their higher velocity and less mass making them expand more violently (and in some case fragment). Conversely heavier bullet tend to penetrate deeper in many cases even if they have moderately less velocity.

Example:
A 180gr 44 Mag bullet fired from a carbine can be fire very fast (over 2000 fps is possible) and would have a much flatter trajectory (relative to say a 300 gr bullet from the same gun) and be very effective on medium and small game without excessive recoil.
On the other hand a 300 gr bullet fired from at Revolver at only 1200 fps is not going to shoot nearly as flat but due to it mass (assuming a well constructed bullet) is going to penetrate much deeper than the much faster 180gr bullet in most cases.

The above is very general and there are lots of specific exceptions to it.

 

[kell]

For this discussion, I am using as an example. 45 colt, 250gr XTP, or 300gr XTP.
Only difference in bullet is 50grs. Using a Heavy 30k loading.

Following Hornady’s loading manual...
Theoretically speaking...
On the 250gr XTP you can achieve about 1350fps max. (My chrono 1368fps average)
On the 300gr XTP you can achieve about 1300fps max. (My chrono 1305fps average)

Albeit to achieve those maximums, each is using a different powder. Obviously the gun used makes a difference. But with all things being equal...

If your hitting your target, let’s assume animal for hunting or SD, in the exact same spot on the animal.

Which is more important? Bullet weight or speed?

Obviously in this example the difference in weight is only 50grs, and a difference of 50fps. So might not be big enough difference to make a difference. But then if this is the case, why have a 250gr and 300gr version of the same bullet?

If I am hitting the animal in the same kill spot. Both will make the kill so why use one over the other?

I have actually loaded and fired both. Felt recoil I couldn’t tell the difference between the two. Accuracy difference was negligible and unnoticeable to me. Cost was the same other then the cost of powder. average Chrono speed on both was faster then published, but then they were fired out of SBR Henry mares leg (13”)

When I fired into Clear Ballistics 10% gel. Average depth was basically the same. 1/4” to half inch difference at most. Expansion, very minor differences.

Energy in ft.lbs = bullet mass in grains x velocity in fps squared / 450435
250x1368x1368/450435=1039
300x1305x1305/450435=1134
Around 10% not too significant?

 

[.38 Special]

One thing I find with revolver cartridges is that you usually can go with a heavier bullet with very little velocity penalty. The example in the OP is typical of that.

I personally have not been terribly impressed with light, fast, rapidly expanding handgun bullets in game. Sometimes they are spectacular, other times they are underwhelming. A heavy, minimally expanding bullet at any velocity that allows complete penetration, on the other hand, is rarely spectacular but always reliable, so that is what I choose. In the old Colt, that means 300 grains as a minimum, and usually 325. Am I even slightly worried that I might be losing 50 FPS by choosing 50 or 75 grains more weight? Nope.

Having written all that, the only practical difference between the two loads in the OP has to do with heavy bone, in my opinion. If a fellow needs to break down a big animal by hitting it through the shoulders, the 300 grain choice is the better one. For all other chores, either load should do just fine.

 

[23tony]

Getting into the 2500+ FPS range will start showing differences between bullet weights since lighter bullets will shed weight marginally faster as speed goes up.

Please forgive (and help remedy) my ignorance: How do bullets "shed weight"?

 

[.38 Special]

Please forgive (and help remedy) my ignorance: How do bullets "shed weight"?

Bits of the bullet - sometimes at the molecular level, sometimes at the "big chunks" level - come off in the animal.

 

[23tony]

Thank you - that makes more sense now that I know it's post-impact!

 

[earlthegoat2]

Please forgive (and help remedy) my ignorance: How do bullets "shed weight"?

To add to @.38 Special, a bullet shedding large chunks is also called fragmenting.

If a bullet fragments, a higher weight bullet to start with is an advantage , albeit a theoretical one, because the fragments and what is left will have more mass and be able to carry on with more damage done after the fragmentation takes place.

Monometal bullets and to a lesser extent, bonded core bullets, resist fragmenting because they are of a soldid piece of material in the former and an adhered bi-metal material in the latter. These are designs that would be known as “premium” bullets. Non bonded bi metal bullets would generically be called “cup and core” bullets.

 

[.38 Special]

Thank you - that makes more sense now that I know it's post-impact!

Yes, I had to re-read the post in question to be sure of the point!

 

[Thomasss]

I have deer hunted with both sizes XTP , and found differences mentioned by MCB. The sectional density of the 300 is greater, however velocity of the 250 is more reactive on impact, ie. bigger wound channel. The 300 doesn't mushroom as well unless it hits a bone on impact. Your sight picture, aiming to achieve same trajectory and recoil will be different and the 300 velocity is relative only over a short distance. If you are talking 50 yards or so, it's horse a piece. Greater distance than that, I prefer the 250 in most hunting situations.